If Jesus Never Existed...
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07-05-2017, 09:34 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Wow, just wow that's low, holocaust deniers are the scum of the earth as the grandson of one of the liberators of Bergen Belsen I take great exception to any mythicist being equated to those shits many of whom are white supremacist scumbags, talk about a disproportionate analogy. Angry
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07-05-2017, 09:42 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 12:23 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  "and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"

What scriptures did Paul have access to at this juncture in time?
I assume he's referring to the OT prophecies and that he is making one of the earliest arguments the Jesus fulfilled those prophecies. Although I think Paul envisioned a spiritual / metaphorical fulfillment "in the heavenlies".
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07-05-2017, 09:43 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 01:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  From an ancient jewish cult, that expected a mystical messiah figure, who was of a spirtual nature, who lived in a platonic-realm, the third-heaven. That folks like Paul believed in, hence why Paul never mentions that Jesus was a human being.

Another 50 years after the fact, the story began to acquire more mundane human elements to make it appeal to larger groups of people, like the romans, and not just jewish adherents to cosmic messiah cult.
Perhaps hell just froze over; for once, I actually agree with you.
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07-05-2017, 09:44 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 02:04 PM)big green mouth Wrote:  
(07-05-2017 12:23 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  "and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"

What scriptures did Paul have access to at this juncture in time?

Quote:Jesus claimed another fulfillment of nonprophecy in Luke 24:46. Speaking to his disciples on the night of his alleged resurrection, he said, "Thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day." That the resurrection of Christ on the third day was prophesied in the scriptures was claimed also by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures." In two different places, then, New Testament writers claimed that the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted in the scriptures. Try as they may, however, bibliolaters cannot produce an Old Testament passage that made this alleged third-day prediction. It simply doesn't exist.

PROPHECIES: IMAGINARY AND UNFULFILLED, Farrell Till
Yes, however, the claims of Luke 24 were not available to Paul at the time. They had not been concocted yet.
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07-05-2017, 09:49 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 01:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not true. Bogus.
At the beginning of Acts, the Apostles ask Jesus "Art Thou at this time , going to return the kingdom to Israel". There is no "mystical messiah figure". It's the VERY SAME messiah, whose JOB was to get the Romans out, and the kingdom restored.
In Paul, Jesus was said to be "exalted", (not risen, and not a mystical figure, but an "exalted hero", like Elijah, and the Seven Sons of Hannah). One of the (many) apocalyptic heroes who were exalted", whom the writer of Paul claimed to be "the anointed one".
I hypothesize that it was the disappointment that Jesus was not going to "return the kingdom to Israel" that would have made Paul's spiritualized doctrines appealing.

Paul spoke of Jesus "seated at the right hand of the father" "in the heavenlies", etc. He appealed to a vision he got direct from god while "caught up to heaven" -- and not to eyewitnesses of a physical Jesus, as the basis for these claims -- despite that eyewitnesses / common knowledge should have been plentiful at the time he penned these words.
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07-05-2017, 10:00 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 09:34 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Wow, just wow that's low, holocaust deniers are the scum of the earth as the grandson of one of the liberators of Bergen Belsen I take great exception to any mythicist being equated to those shits many of whom are white supremacist scumbags, talk about a disproportionate analogy. Angry

I don't think holocaust deniers are the scum of the earth. That would mean I believe that more than 1 billion people are the scum of the earth. You can't argue with facts, there are way more scholars that are holocaust deniers (the majority of Islamic scholars are), then there are scholars that believe there was not a historical Jesus.

Holocaust deniers are misinformed, they're often biased by their world-views, and many are uneducated. But I don't think they're scum, I think it's a mistake to view people in that way just because they don't understand history, or they don't want to have their world-views challenged.

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07-05-2017, 10:16 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2017 10:20 PM by Paleophyte.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 09:15 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Your refusal to accept accepted the mainstream historiography of Jesus is no different to Holocaust deniers refusing to accept that.

Have you ever noticed how some people get so emotionally invested in being right that they act like complete jack-asses? That was an impressive example BTW. Thumbsup

Let me make this simple for you.

The existence of the Holocaust is based upon a lot of solid evidence including first hand accounts of people who lived through it and the Nazis' own records. It happened less than 80 years ago.

The existence of Jesus Christ is based on hearsay so muddied that the information that you provided shows that modern scholars have no idea who said what to whom for several centuries. The purported events took place in the neighborhood of two millennia ago.

If you can't admit the difference between denying the one and denying the other then you are either insane, incompetent or dishonest. Please pick one so we can know exactly why we are pointing and laughing.

And before you hit "Reply" count to 10 and ask yourself, "Does my argument violate reason, simple decency or otherwise make me sound like an imbecile?" It might save you from disgracing yourself further.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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07-05-2017, 10:33 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Thank you paleophyte, well said. I'm very sensitive about that subject, my grandfather suffered for years after what he saw so I didn't trust myself to reply any further than I already have.
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07-05-2017, 10:34 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 09:15 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Another possibility:

[Image: 7bACeiH.png]

Quote:Whenever theists don't like something, they knee-jerk with the "strawman" shit.

Your refusal to accept accepted the mainstream historiography of Jesus is no different to Holocaust deniers refusing to accept that. The very definition of Holocaust denial is "the belief that the Holocaust did not occur as it is described by mainstream historiography". And it's no different to YEC's refusing to accept science either. To quote Neil Asher Silberman:

"There is no difference whatsoever between Scientific Creationists (who twist every possible bit of empirical evidence to show that Darwin MAY be wrong and that the world COULD have been created in seven days 6000 years ago), with those fundamentalist biblical hardliners who INSIST that every single word of the Bible is inerrant, divinely inspired and that every historical story it contains is as reliable as a news report in the New York Times– no, sorry– the Fox News Network."

That can sentiment, and absolutely should be, applied to all matters of historiography where there is a high degree of confidence among experts. What's the different between you refusing to accept the historicity of Paul and Jesus, and Christians refusing to accept the non-historicity of Moses and the Patriarchs?

You have YET to give me a LIST of these "experts" who have no conflict of interest. You certainly are not one. Your stupid little irrelevant quote is the fallacy of the FALSE ANALOGY, there sport. By that idiotic definition, and sentiment, NO ONE would ever be allowed to introduce new ideas, about anything. I do get that they intimidate you, old feller. But thanks for falling into : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
LMAO.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 10:16 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  The existence of the Holocaust is based upon a lot of solid evidence including first hand accounts of people who lived through it and the Nazis' own records. It happened less than 80 years ago.

The existence of Jesus Christ is based on hearsay so muddied that the information that you provided shows that modern scholars have no idea who said what to whom for several centuries. The purported events took place in the neighborhood of two millennia ago.

I think you missed the point. They are different to each other, yes. But they both are supported by mainstream historiography. Refusal to accept mainstream historiography is the textbook definition of holocaust denial.

The existence of Jesus of Nazareth is not based on hearsay - it's the mainstream view of contemporary historians.

Quote:If you can't admit the difference between denying the one and denying the other then you are either insane, incompetent or dishonest. Please pick one so we can know exactly why we are pointing and laughing.

Why don't we set academic consensus as the standard of evidence? If we do that then the difference is that there are thousands of scholars that doubt the Holocaust, but only about six that doubt the existence of Jesus. Now who's being dishonest? Walk into any mosque and ask if there was a Holocaust.

You're also being deliberately dishonest about the "muddied information". It's the same with the holocaust, and this is why there are deniers, because they take obscure bits of information that was factually wrong, or propaganda material, or otherwise misinformed and then build their case around that. What everyone else does is take the source materials, and discount the stuff that's wrong to work towards the truth. And the the people who are qualified to tell you what is good quality information, and what is poor quality or of no use are WWII historians.

Same thing with the NT - we're not discussing whether or not Jesus fed 5,000 hungry men with five loaves of bread - we're talking about whether or not he was historical. The people that are qualified on that are New Testament scholars, and classicists.

What Mythicists want to do is listen only to Mythicist scholars. Even though they're the outliers. There's nothing about the Mythicist view that represents critical thinking, what it represents is people with a negative world-view of religion that refuse to accept mainstream scholarly thought on these issues.

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