If Jesus Never Existed...
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07-05-2017, 11:57 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 10:58 PM)Aractus Wrote:  I think you missed the point.

Well, somebody certainly did.

Quote:They are different to each other, yes. But they both are supported by mainstream historiography.

No. One is exclusively historiography whereas the other is history. This was your first clue that there's the tiniest difference between the two events.

Quote:Refusal to accept mainstream historiography is the textbook definition of holocaust denial.

No. Refusal to accept the historical account of the Holocaust is the textbook definition of Holocaust Denial. You're carrying on about Historiography Denial, which nobody gives a sailing shit about.

Quote:The existence of Jesus of Nazareth is not based on hearsay

"Hearsay: information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor."

AKA the Bible

Your inability to put names or dates to the authors of the Gospels much less who wrote what based off of whom is the very essence of unsubstantiated hearsay, myth and fable.

Quote:it's the mainstream view of contemporary historians.

One branch of historians working with pitifully poor evidence. Not their fault but it is what it is.

Quote:Why don't we set academic consensus as the standard of evidence? If we do that then the difference is that there are thousands of scholars that doubt the Holocaust, but only about six that doubt the existence of Jesus. Now who's being dishonest? Walk into any mosque and ask if there was a Holocaust.

The one doubling down on his preemptive ad hominem (what exactly is that fallacy?) with an argument ad populum and a dollop of bigotry. Your average mosque-goers opinion is irrelevant, though if I were to ask that question in any mosque in this neighborhood my shallow grave would become Islam and Judaism's unifying goal.

Quote:You're also being deliberately dishonest about the "muddied information".

Kindly explain how sources that you can't identify or even place to better than a couple of decades is not "muddied information". Honestly, that's a generous description of it.

Quote:What Mythicists want to do is listen only to Mythicist scholars. Even though they're the outliers. There's nothing about the Mythicist view that represents critical thinking, what it represents is people with a negative world-view of religion that refuse to accept mainstream scholarly thought on these issues.

I've lost track of all the fallacies in that dismissive diatribe. Popcorn

As it happens, I personally believe that there was some Jesus twerp that the legends are based around. But you can't even persuade me that you're anything other than a world-class example of the arrogant jackass mating dance. Thumbsup

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08-05-2017, 12:53 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 11:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
Quote:Why don't we set academic consensus as the standard of evidence? If we do that then the difference is that there are thousands of scholars that doubt the Holocaust, but only about six that doubt the existence of Jesus. Now who's being dishonest? Walk into any mosque and ask if there was a Holocaust.

The one doubling down on his preemptive ad hominem (what exactly is that fallacy?) with an argument ad populum and a dollop of bigotry. Your average mosque-goers opinion is irrelevant, though if I were to ask that question in any mosque in this neighborhood my shallow grave would become Islam and Judaism's unifying goal.

As I showed you above, Neil Asher Silberman believes that denying history is no different to Scientific Creationism. He was talking in the context of incorrect Biblical history. And I think he's right, we should hold people accountable to history.

You seem to think there's a huge difference between the intelligence of those that doubt the holocaust and those that doubt the historicity of Jesus. I want to say again, I don't think deniers are necessarily more stupid than anyone else. They are stupid, that's true, but so are people that deny the historicity of Jesus in the face of the overwhelming consensus put forward by historians.

The question of the historicity of Jesus is not even considered worthy of debate in academic circles (this comes from both Bart Ehrman and Larry Hurtado).

Anyway, as you're clearly not a Mythicist, I don't know what you're arguing with me about.

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08-05-2017, 03:20 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Aractus is a very curious character, since he's an atheist (unless he's changed since I interacted with him in the past) yet he is clearly massively emotionally invested in a "historical Jesus" and is protective of Christianity.

I've tried to figure out this conundrum. All I can guess is that he has fond memories of being a Christian, and doesn't want to shatter it all by considering that there may not have been a real character underneath the story.

By the way, a mythicist isn't necessarily saying none of the events happened. Personally I think that there is probably a handful of real historical figures represented in these stories, and it's impossible to meaningfully pin this all on any particular person. The evidence is also so hopelessly after the fact that I don't believe a single word attributed to any of these potential characters actually came out of their mouths in any recognizable form.

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08-05-2017, 04:45 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(08-05-2017 03:20 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Aractus is a very curious character, since he's an atheist (unless he's changed since I interacted with him in the past) yet he is clearly massively emotionally invested in a "historical Jesus" and is protective of Christianity.

I've tried to figure out this conundrum. All I can guess is that he has fond memories of being a Christian, and doesn't want to shatter it all by considering that there may not have been a real character underneath the story.

By the way, a mythicist isn't necessarily saying none of the events happened. Personally I think that there is probably a handful of real historical figures represented in these stories, and it's impossible to meaningfully pin this all on any particular person. The evidence is also so hopelessly after the fact that I don't believe a single word attributed to any of these potential characters actually came out of their mouths in any recognizable form.
Good points Rob, since its not possible to know definitively who is right I'm at peace with saying I could be wrong as no one knows for sure given the timespan involved, this appears to be something Aractus seems unable to do in this instance. Therein lies the problem and perhaps
the reason too, some folks seem psychologically unable to concede points and have to be right about a pet issue at all costs, this is borne out by the number of fallacies in the posts, and believe me if I can spot a fallacy it must be a whopper because I'm normally hopeless at identifying them, I still struggle naming them but I'm seeing them. Aractus seems like a nice enough guy which is ironically why I'm considering placing him as my first non troll non Poe member on temporary ignore as I don't want to start ad homineming him out of frustration at his sweeping generalisations and false analogies regarding mythicists, which BTW is the reason I got involved in this train wreck of a debate in the first place.
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08-05-2017, 12:31 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Indeed, we're dealing with probabilities here and the evidence is incredibly sparse. I'm amazed at people who confidently state, "There was a historical Jesus" as if it's a matter of fact. I'm even more amazed at atheists who get angry with those who question this; Aractus is just one of several I've previously interacted with.

What a person even means by a HJ is something that varies wildly. Present a lot of specifics and the evidence becomes very shaky. Dilute it down, and you could be talking about one of hundreds of guys probably around at the time.

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08-05-2017, 04:14 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(08-05-2017 12:53 AM)Aractus Wrote:  As I showed you above, Neil Asher Silberman believes that denying history is no different to Scientific Creationism. He was talking in the context of incorrect Biblical history. And I think he's right, we should hold people accountable to history.

No one cares what Silberman says about an analogy that is not even applicable here.

Quote:You seem to think there's a huge difference between the intelligence of those that doubt the holocaust and those that doubt the historicity of Jesus. I want to say again, I don't think deniers are necessarily more stupid than anyone else. They are stupid, that's true, but so are people that deny the historicity of Jesus in the face of the overwhelming consensus put forward by historians.

"Consensus" is not *overwhelming*. Evidence might be. You have never PROVEN what you claim about consensus, merely asserted it.

Quote:The question of the historicity of Jesus is not even considered worthy of debate in academic circles (this comes from both Bart Ehrman and Larry Hurtado).

And yet Ehrman HIMSELF debated the subject with Carrier, and eventually stopped answering his questions.

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08-05-2017, 04:24 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(08-05-2017 04:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 12:53 AM)Aractus Wrote:  As I showed you above, Neil Asher Silberman believes that denying history is no different to Scientific Creationism. He was talking in the context of incorrect Biblical history. And I think he's right, we should hold people accountable to history.

No one cares what Silberman says about an analogy that is not even applicable here.

Quote:You seem to think there's a huge difference between the intelligence of those that doubt the holocaust and those that doubt the historicity of Jesus. I want to say again, I don't think deniers are necessarily more stupid than anyone else. They are stupid, that's true, but so are people that deny the historicity of Jesus in the face of the overwhelming consensus put forward by historians.

"Consensus" is not *overwhelming*. Evidence might be. You have never PROVEN what you claim about consensus, merely asserted it.

Quote:The question of the historicity of Jesus is not even considered worthy of debate in academic circles (this comes from both Bart Ehrman and Larry Hurtado).

And yet Ehrman HIMSELF debated the subject with Carrier, and eventually stopped answering his questions.

I wonder if Aractus will show the peer reviewed papers that show that the Holocaust never happened as he makes his careless equivocations?

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08-05-2017, 04:52 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(08-05-2017 12:53 AM)Aractus Wrote:  As I showed you above, Neil Asher Silberman believes that denying history is no different to Scientific Creationism. He was talking in the context of incorrect Biblical history. And I think he's right, we should hold people accountable to history.

There is no such thing as "Biblical History". The Bible is a collection of texts, in various literary forms, (NOT ONE of them which resembles "writing history") written by believers for religious motives.
Two people see the SAME event. One sees a "miracle", one does not.

The REAL question here, is why people get SO incensed about other people having "the very audacity" to raise questions about events that may or may not have occurred. The question is why are some people SO FUCKING dogmatic, they *need* to insult that very group of questioners. One would hope these dogmatists have nothing to do with the teaching of History to real students, and imparting this "don't ask that question, consensus does not permit you to ask that question". Facepalm

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08-05-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:You seem to think there's a huge difference between the intelligence of those that doubt the holocaust and those that doubt the historicity of Jesus.


Stop the bullshit, Danny.

Holocaust deniers deny mountains of evidence.

Jesus deniers doubt the veracity of your stupid fucking bible which has nothing to support it except the brain farts of believers.

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08-05-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:What Mythicists want to do is listen only to Mythicist scholars. Even though they're the outliers. There's nothing about the Mythicist view that represents critical thinking, what it represents is people with a negative world-view of religion that refuse to accept mainstream scholarly thought on these issues.

You have absolutely no evidence for that crap. So you think Carrier's examination of the gospels as mythic form does not represent critical thinking ? What a complete idiot. A religion lover who *says* he's an atheist. Consider

Quote:what it represents is people with a negative world-view of religion that refuse to accept mainstream scholarly thought on these issues

Because we all know (even though he's never shown how it is he knows what he claims), embracing consensus is what's ultimately important. Weeping
So finally here we have it. If you ask too many questions about religion, you have a "negative world view" of religion, and finally this Aractus fool outs himself.
The only people allowed to discuss this subject are those that have a positive world-view of religion, and the only positions allowed stem from THAT position, cuz he's now also a mind reader. Facepalm

Fuck

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