If Jesus Never Existed...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-05-2017, 09:50 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(08-05-2017 12:53 AM)Aractus Wrote:  As I showed you above, Neil Asher Silberman believes that denying history is no different to Scientific Creationism.
And he's wrong. One, creationism, is a denial of demonstrable, testable, falsifiable evidence, and the other, in this case, the existence of Jesus, is not. At all. The evidence for the existence of Jesus has no more than assertions made by people no more credible than any other religious charlatan of today.

(08-05-2017 12:53 AM)Aractus Wrote:  And I think he's right, we should hold people accountable to history.
Absolutely....IF you can demonstrate that your accounting of history is accurate. So far no one has sufficiently demonstrated the existence of the Jesus of the Bible.

(08-05-2017 12:53 AM)Aractus Wrote:  They are stupid, that's true, but so are people that deny the historicity of Jesus in the face of the overwhelming consensus put forward by historians.
The overwhelming majority of Biblical historians are Christians and were Christians before they became Biblical historians. It's a well-known fact that for centuries the existence of Jesus as a historical person wasn't even brought into question among biblical historians or scholars.
Secondly, I couldn't give a fiddlers fuck what the consensus is if that consensus was arrived at with insufficient evidence. The existence of Jesus, especially as he is portrayed in the Bible, hasn't met anything close to a sufficient burden of proof as far as I am concerned.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like WhiskeyDebates's post
09-05-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
A Christian biblical scholar, before they even start looking at evidence, already believes in a magical Jesus. So obviously they believe in a historical Jesus, too. This gives them two options: conclude that there is indeed a historical Jesus by pushing the "evidence" around in circles, or stop being Christian. I think we know which is most likely.

However, there are some problems with the Bible so incredibly apparent that even Christian scholars don't deny them.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Robvalue's post
09-05-2017, 04:53 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(08-05-2017 03:20 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Aractus is a very curious character, since he's an atheist (unless he's changed since I interacted with him in the past) yet he is clearly massively emotionally invested in a "historical Jesus" and is protective of Christianity.

I'll give you top marks for at least thinking constructively and creatively.

No, I don't feel protective of Christianity any more than any other religion, but they have every right to exist.

Quote:By the way, a mythicist isn't necessarily saying none of the events happened.

By the way, yes they are. Mainstream scholars do not contend that events in gospels transpired they way they are transcribed. Or more specifically they take each passage on its own merits.

Now I haven't replied to Bart yet. He so kindly answered my question (he thinks Paul had a vision), but I see that as problematic because I don't understand HOW he could have had a vision. So guys put your heads together please and answer me this -

The resurrection myth we believe arose due to some of the disciples and/or family of Jesus experiencing visions of him after crucifixion. This isn't unusual, many people have visions of dead loved ones. But Paul was persecuting the church and had never met Jesus - so how could he have had a vision? Most scholars it appears think he did, Bart thinks he did, I am not convinced he had a vision. I think he had a profound experience that shook his beliefs to its core, but whatever it was doesn't have to have been a vision of Jesus and I can think of several explanations there. Does anyone know why Paul may have had a vision of Jesus?

My Blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 04:59 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2017 05:26 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:'ll give you top marks for at least thinking constructively and creatively.

*As if* anyone gives a shit who you "give marks" to, or what kind of marks you give, gramps. We're not in your class, and you are not here teaching, or an authority on anything.
Having "visions" of dead people, (which is actually not what is described in the texts), as in all the "visions" the dead "shade" is not initially recognized,
does not explain "resurrection", nor is "visions" a sufficiently common phenomenon to account for the numbers reported. You're simply making up shit to confirm your bias,
and then you have the gall to turn around and insult mythicists as a group. Bwahahahaha. "Many people" ? Really ? A few, maybe, and NEVER EVER 100 % of a group in question.
You HAVE no head to begin with.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 05:01 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(08-05-2017 09:50 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  And he's wrong. One, creationism, is a denial of demonstrable, testable, falsifiable evidence, and the other, in this case, the existence of Jesus, is not. At all. The evidence for the existence of Jesus has no more than assertions made by people no more credible than any other religious charlatan of today.

Right, that's a strawman like nothing I've ever seen! Silberman has never said anything I'm aware of in favour or against the historicity of Jesus. As I said, the context of that quote was against biblical history.

Quote:The overwhelming majority of Biblical historians are Christians

I'm going to pretend you meant to say "NT Scholar". A biblical historian could be anyone - a classicist, an OT scholar, even an Egyptologist. But yes I agree according to Carrier around 70% of NT scholars are theists.

Quote:The existence of Jesus, especially as he is portrayed in the Bible

Yet another straw man. Not once in this thread did I suggest you can characterise Jesus the way that the gospel writers did.

My Blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 05:38 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(09-05-2017 05:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  But yes I agree according to Carrier around 70% of NT scholars are theists.

Another example. He uses Carrier when it's convenient, then denies it.
He dismisses mythicists when it isn't.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 06:40 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2017 02:53 PM by mordant.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(09-05-2017 04:53 AM)Aractus Wrote:  The resurrection myth we believe arose due to some of the disciples and/or family of Jesus experiencing visions of him after crucifixion. This isn't unusual, many people have visions of dead loved ones. But Paul was persecuting the church and had never met Jesus - so how could he have had a vision? Most scholars it appears think he did, Bart thinks he did, I am not convinced he had a vision. I think he had a profound experience that shook his beliefs to its core, but whatever it was doesn't have to have been a vision of Jesus and I can think of several explanations there. Does anyone know why Paul may have had a vision of Jesus?
No one knows. However, like everyone else, I have theories.

First of all, Paul claiming he had a vision doesn't mean he had one. It just means he claims to have had one. Parenthetically: just because it's claimed by some writers that there was a Jesus who had followers who had visions don't make any of THOSE things true either.

Secondly, not all visions are created equally. Assuming Paul is a historical character who never met Jesus, any vision of Jesus he had would not have the same cause as a Jesus-follower. But it doesn't matter. All that's required to set someone up for a vision as ordinary psychological event, is that they are obsessed / fascinated with / attached to the person. The person doesn't have to be real, or personally peresent anywhere but in between the ears of the person having the vision.

So ... assuming Paul had the vision he claims to have had, it is entirely explicable by him constantly ruminating on his Celestial Jesus seated at the right hand of the father in the heavenlies. It may have been helped by physical issues such as epilepsy.

But to me the simplest explanation is that Paul simply made his vision up. He uses it as the "substantiation" for his truth-claims. It is at base simply "god told me". I have always said this is particularly telling when he lived at a time when actual eyewitnesses of Jesus could be appealed to, to set the Jesus story into a common-knowledge context. That would be far more powerful. Yet, he resorted to claiming personal revelation from god. I can think of only three reasons for this: Paul was a liar, or Paul was tremendously egotistical and needed to "establish" a separate orthodoxy / narrative for his personal use, which unlike many of Jesus' Jewish followers had a place at the table (even a prominent one) for the Gentiles, or, he was simply not mentally well and was delusional.

And yes I listed those in my own rough order of probability, and yes, they could all be true to varying degrees.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 07:24 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Sorry to butt in but are we seriously discussing VISIONS as proof of anything other than some sort of mental problem (and that's if someone even *had* a vision. Hell, in this case, I had a vision in which the Cardinal Cosmic Consciousness came to me and said I have been sent to this world to rule over it and bring forth the age of universal love and understanding but I can only do this from my private Caribbean island, so you should all sent me all your money and then go live in caves, eating tree bark and grasshoppers (for the protein, you know) Facepalm

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Vera's post
09-05-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(09-05-2017 05:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Right, that's a strawman like nothing I've ever seen!
Then I doubt you have ever seen one before.

(09-05-2017 05:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Silberman has never said anything I'm aware of in favour or against the historicity of Jesus.
I never said that he did. I'm simply taking his assertion, used for support by you, and applying his standard to the historicity of Christ and showing how he, and you, are wrong.
Creationism is the denial of something that is demonstrably evident, testable, and falsifiable. The historicity of Christ has none of these qualities being based entirely on stories from anonymous authors, decades after the event. Also known as hearsay.

You are trying to claim that denying the historicity of Jesus is equal to denying the holocaust which is absurd. We have mountains of demonstrable evidence, thousands of verified oral and written accounts, and physical evidence for the Holocaust. We have NONE of this for Jesus being a historical person. We have unverifiable claims, which are not demonstrable, lacking in any substantive outside corroboration, claims made by unknown people, with a history of dishonest attestation and authorship, written decades after the fact by people who were clearly not in the places they are writing about, and repeated by people who felt lying for their beliefs was perfectly fine? We don't even have original copies of these assertions, we have copies of copies of copies, all of which bare marks of forgery, extrapolation, and outright adding things to the story centuries later.

And you are saying denying such flimsy assertions and hearsay is the same as denying that for which we have clear and demonstrable evidence is true? Are you fuckin' serious mate?

Let me ask you a question what demonstrable, testable, and falsifiable evidence exists for the historicity of Jesus that does not exist for Moses? How are the claims to their existence substantively different?

(09-05-2017 05:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  But yes I agree according to Carrier around 70% of NT scholars are theists.
Do you understand WHY I made this point? Do you get why to a rational and skeptic mind a consensus arrived at by people who already believe it's true, not just believe it's true but have it as the very core of their world view, before they even investigate it is less than compelling?

(09-05-2017 05:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Yet another straw man. Not once in this thread did I suggest you can characterize Jesus the way that the gospel writers did.
I never said that you did. You are not terribly good at reading comprehension. What I was actually saying was that Jesus as a historical figure is a claim that has not met its burden of proof and especially has not met it for the gospel depiction. AND.....it especially has not met a burden of proof anywhere fuckin' near that of the bloody Holocaust.
Making your comparison between the two fallacious at best and idiotic at worst, which was the point I was trying to make.

As an aside, I just want to say I've read a bit of your blog and it's very clear you don't apply your skepticism objectively or rationally.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like WhiskeyDebates's post
09-05-2017, 09:52 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(09-05-2017 07:24 AM)Vera Wrote:  Sorry to butt in but are we seriously discussing VISIONS as proof of anything other than some sort of mental problem (and that's if someone even *had* a vision. Hell, in this case, I had a vision in which the Cardinal Cosmic Consciousness came to me and said I have been sent to this world to rule over it and bring forth the age of universal love and understanding but I can only do this from my private Caribbean island, so you should all sent me all your money and then go live in caves, eating tree bark and grasshoppers (for the protein, you know) Facepalm

This; I fail to see whether Paul had a vision or not even matters. Either he made it up, had a seizure like event, or was just bat shit crazy; whichever one it is just proves Paul had some issues.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like ResidentEvilFan's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: