If Jesus Never Existed...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-05-2017, 11:16 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2017 11:21 PM by Aractus.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(09-05-2017 05:38 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Another example. He uses Carrier when it's convenient, then denies it.
He dismisses mythicists when it isn't.

I was citing Carrier's own figure against him. That's hardly using it for my purposes.

(09-05-2017 07:24 AM)Vera Wrote:  Sorry to butt in but are we seriously discussing VISIONS as proof of anything other than some sort of mental problem (and that's if someone even *had* a vision.

No, people have visions of dead loved ones all the time, it's quite a normal thing that has nothing to do with the supernatural. My question is why would Paul have had a vision? Like I said, Bart Ehrman said that he thinks Paul did have a vision based on what Paul wrote across three of his letters.

(09-05-2017 09:39 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  You are trying to claim that denying the historicity of Jesus is equal to denying the holocaust which is absurd.

Why is it absurd? Holocaust denial is actually very well supported by Muslim scholars:





Mythicism does not have even remotely well supported scholarship behind it. What you're saying is this: Holocaust denial is way more stupid than Mythicism. What I'm saying is: There are way more scholars that agree with Holocaust denial than with Mythicism. I'm not trying to compare the quality of primary evidence, and I'm not trying to say Holocaust denial isn't absurd, I'm simply pointing out that there are more scholars behind it than there are behind Mythicism! If you want Mythicism taken seriously then you need to at least start with a well supported scholarly base around it - which is exactly what Ehrman said in his debate with Price. Then you could have a legitimate discussion. But all you have at the moment are a group of 6 or so outliers, all of whom have different incompatible ideas about the origins of Christianity.

Quote:Let me ask you a question what demonstrable, testable, and falsifiable evidence exists for the historicity of Jesus that does not exist for Moses? How are the claims to their existence substantively different?

Well for one thing, most historians believe that Moses is not a historical figure, and that there was no Exodus. I know I pointed this out already, but you can still find outliers. For example, David Rohl's "New Chronology". Rohl is an agnostic, and a fully qualified Egyptologist. But, much like Carrier's hypothesis that Jesus was a celestial being thought up by Paul, New Chronology has almost no scholarly support behind it except for Rohl himself and some Evangelical Christian scholars (but they each have yet different hypotheses just like Mythicism). So what I would say to you is that the evidence FOR the exodus is about equal to the evidence AGAINST historicity of Jesus, and if that's the level of evidence you're willing to accept, why not accept New Chronology as historical fact?

In fact, you can see a whole documentary series done by classicist Michael Scott on early Christianity here. That's a great docu-series.

So again, here's my question: why should I take Mythicists seriously when: 1. They don't even have the scholarly support that Holocaust deniers have, 2. Even secular scholars and classicists agree that Jesus was a historical figure, 3. Mythicists can't even agree on a unified hypothesis and each present their own?

My Blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-05-2017, 05:15 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(09-05-2017 11:16 PM)Aractus Wrote:  I was citing Carrier's own figure against him. That's hardly using it for my purposes.

Quote:But yes I agree according to Carrier around 70% of NT scholars are theists.

You're a lying sack of shit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
10-05-2017, 05:38 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:My question is why would Paul have had a vision

And my answer is I don't give a fuck and neither should anyone, other than his immediate family! What am I? His doctor? His insurance company? It proves SQUAT.

Jesus-probably-never-existed-freaking-Christ! Facepalm

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vera's post
10-05-2017, 05:39 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(09-05-2017 11:16 PM)Aractus Wrote:  1. They don't even have the scholarly support that Holocaust deniers have,

Too bad for you, you idiot, you indict YOURSELF with your own words.
"The primary evidence for the historicity of Jesus are the four Christian gospels. Secondary to that are the genuine epistles of Paul. And thirdly there is the Epistle of James. That’s it in a nutshell."

Sound familiar ?
There is no "scholarly support" for Holocaust denial. None at all. So your idiotic analogy is FALSE. There are legitimate questions about whether a "Jesus" existed.
There are hundreds of thousands (perhaps MILLIONS) of pieces evidence for the Holocaust, and millions of eye witnesses. To say that 4 of the many many gospels which got included in the canon (because "there are 4 winds and 4 pillars upon which the Earth stands") which are nothing but proclamations of BELIEF, and the (supposed) edited "letters" of a madman who said he believed because he had a vision of someone he never met, are BETTER evidence than the millions of pieces of evidence for the Holocaust, (which IS what you are saying) is nothing but the ravings of a lunatic.

You are mentally ill. Get help.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
10-05-2017, 07:07 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 07:13 AM by Aractus.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 05:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no "scholarly support" for Holocaust denial. None at all.

You're either lying, or you're wilfully ignorant. All you had to do was look at the 3 minute video I posted with Israeli scholars clearly saying Holocaust denial has wide support among scholars in the Muslim world. Here's an exact quote from the vid:

"The phenomena of holocaust denial in the Arab world is well based. It is supported by intellectuals, historians, and spiritual leaders." - Dr. Nesia Shemer. She goes on to say "I think that as Israelis it is very important for us to learn about this phenomena and to understand what the Muslim world says about it. And as a society we should strengthen the education (the Jewish and Israeli education) for values."

That's not a concoction, it's an unfortunate truth. I'm quoting active scholars, you're not quoting anyone at all.

Quote:So your idiotic analogy is FALSE. There are legitimate questions about whether a "Jesus" existed.

No there aren't! Price for example assumes that Paul never existed either. Carrier assumes everything can be traced back to Paul, but the reality is that the Gospels and the book of James do not at all trace back to him! Not only that, but Paul warns against "false teachers" because there was already division within the church, he specifically mentions the Jerusalem council in Galatians, where both he himself and Acts agree that he and Barnabas were not of particular influence at that time in the central Jerusalem church! What does Carrier have to say about that? How can Paul be the creator of this new religion, yet he has little influence, he's warning against "false teachers", and he even says in 1 Corinthians 15 that "I was taught this creed I will now share with you". How is any of that possible if he created it all??!

Quote:There are hundreds of thousands (perhaps MILLIONS) of pieces evidence for the Holocaust, and millions of eye witnesses.

Right, again I'm not questioning the evidence. The evidence for the holocaust is very clear, and yes there is more evidence for that then any other older piece of ancient history. I'm not disputing that at all, all I'm saying is there are literally hundreds or thousands of denialist scholars in the Muslim world. I showed you the above video, if you doubt it then send a question to the scholars! Or better still, send a question to Imam Shaikh Mohammad Tawhidi.

Quote:To say that 4 of the many many gospels which got included in the canon (because "there are 4 winds and 4 pillars upon which the Earth stands") which are nothing but proclamations of BELIEF, and the (supposed) edited "letters" of a madman who said he believed because he had a vision of someone he never met, are BETTER evidence than the millions of pieces of evidence for the Holocaust, (which IS what you are saying) is nothing but the ravings of a lunatic.

You are mentally ill. Get help.

You don't even know what you're talking about. Paul didn't write a gospel. Most of the non-included gospels were written later than the canonical gospels, but I guess if you don't believe you can listen to textual critics then no evidence will ever convince you of anything anyway. But the point is that the question about the other gospels or the other acts etc is irrelevant to the question of whether Jesus existed. Again, we're not discussing whether he really turned water into wine at a party, or walked on water. Even if we didn't have a single gospel, the letters of Paul make it clear that Jesus was a real living person that Paul unfortunately never met.

And I was just talking about the primary evidence. Josephus mentions Jesus, James the Just, and John the Baptist as being historical people (obviously I'm not talking about Testimonium Flavianum, but it wouldn't surprise me if you claim that I am). And he was a first century Israeli historian.

Like I said, the hypothesis is so fringe that it's no different to quoting Rohl in defence of the historicity of the Exodus. And just to be clear here, I'm not taking a swipe at Rohl - like Carrier he is a well respected historian. But they don't have any support from their peers for their fringe hypotheses.

My Blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-05-2017, 07:24 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Those muslim scholars are not denialists for scholarly reasons but ideological ones, false equivalence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-05-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Right, that's exactly my point.

My Blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-05-2017, 07:57 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Mythicism has more going for it scholastically than than holocaust denial. This is the thing I don't understand, we cannot be sure Jesus didn't exist but we cannot be sure he did either having a greater consensus of scholars in your camp doesn't mean that there is an equivalence with holocaust deniers and mythicists. The holocaust deniers are deniers for ideological reasons mythicists are not, I do not know how you cannot see this.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-05-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 07:30 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Right, that's exactly my point.

Thanks for contradicting yourself.
Quote: Holocaust denial has wide support among scholars in the Muslim world.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-05-2017, 08:16 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 07:07 AM)Aractus Wrote:  No there aren't!

That's NOTHING but your (incompetent) opinion. THEY have spent years on the subject, and THEY are far more competent than you will ever be.

Quote:Not only that, but Paul warns against "false teachers" because there was already division within the church, he specifically mentions the Jerusalem council in Galatians, where both he himself and Acts agree that he and Barnabas were not of particular influence at that time in the central Jerusalem church.

Now all you have to do is prove:
1. there was a Paul
2. that he said that

There was no "central Jerusalem *church*", at that point. They were still ALL Jews.
You drank the Kool Aide, and remain drunk on it.

Quote:How can Paul be the creator of this new religion, yet he has little influence, he's warning against "false teachers", and he even says in 1 Corinthians 15 that "I was taught this creed I will now share with you".


I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. Galations 1:12


You're SO full of shit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: