If Jesus Never Existed...
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10-05-2017, 11:20 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 11:06 AM)adey67 Wrote:  This sounds suspiciously like the 10/42 apologetic, he's abundantly attested to in early sources but the early sources are old and unverifiable they are not good sources having been written so long after the events they cannot be definitive proof or even definitive evidence. My point is there is room for doubt, I could be wrong or you could be wrong but only one of us seems to be willing to accept this.

Again, to quote Ehrman - "why not just deny the holocaust?"

The gospels are problematic in some ways, but not so much so that they have nothing valid to say about the ministry of Jesus. And the letters of Paul aren't problmatic, and we have James, Jesus and John the Baptist all mentioned by Josephus as well. And again, that argument you're making is just not valid and again to quote Ehrman makes you look foolish.

Again, the gospels, the book of James, and the letters of Paul are not written "so long after the events they cannot be definitive proof". As Ehrman mentioned above, Paul is an eyewitness to James and to Peter.

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10-05-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 11:20 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Again, the gospels, the book of James, and the letters of Paul are not written "so long after the events they cannot be definitive proof". As Ehrman mentioned above, Paul is an eyewitness to James and to Peter.

There is no such thing as "definitive proof" in such matters. Definitive proof is reserved to logic and mathematics. In this particular case, the fact that none of the documents are known to be written by eyewitnesses (and most of them are strongly suspected not to be) is relevant. I'm not a mythicist by any means, but there is certainly room for doubt.
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10-05-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
That's right, you wouldn't use the term "definitive proof" when talking about historical documents, even for an event like the holocaust. But you use the term "hard evidence".

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10-05-2017, 11:37 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 11:29 AM)Aractus Wrote:  That's right, you wouldn't use the term "definitive proof" when talking about historical documents, even for an event like the holocaust. But you use the term "hard evidence".
Ffs we have film of the holocaust I am a first hand witness to someone who was there in person that's hard evidence and also definitive proof you cannot make a comparison with hj and holocaust you are being deliberately dishonest.
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10-05-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 11:29 AM)Aractus Wrote:  That's right, you wouldn't use the term "definitive proof" when talking about historical documents, even for an event like the holocaust. But you use the term "hard evidence".

You can't compare Jesus to the holocaust. The amount and type of evidence is entirely different. The evidence for the holocaust is many orders of magnitude "harder" than the evidence for Jesus (particularly the Jesus of the Gospels, who is almost certainly fictional, although possibly based on a real person). There are still people alive today who experienced/witnessed the holocaust. There is nothing remotely like that for Jesus.
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10-05-2017, 11:52 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 11:55 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Whoever wrote Paul, (we actually have no evidence for who wrote Paul), and we know the letters (even some of the ones considered authentic), were combo jobs. They *claim* to be an eyewitness. There is no reason to take what is written by someone who says he had visions, at his word.

The Holocaust is a false analogy and a red herring, (no matter who actually does it). Those who use it, seem to demonstrate they are utterly unable to evaluate historical materials, objectively. Very strange. There is no similarity there. It's especially strange when historians use the analogy in attempting to discredit a position they find annoying, and stand in front of audiences, and "sigh deeply and angrily', as if to say "How dare you question me ?".

It is very suspicious that instead of actually discussing the evidence, Aractus and his ilk spend the majority of their time attempting to generally discredit the questions being asked, and the general position, instead of answering the actual questions.

Quote:The gospels are problematic in some ways, but not so much so that they have nothing valid to say about the ministry of Jesus.

Assertion. No evidence. Not even a 3rd Grade attempt to say what is and is not "problematic", how it is he's decided that, and a STANDARD to be used, to determine at which the "problematic" can be dismissed or ignored.

The childhood stories are myth, the trials and passion have conflicts and could not have happened as recounted, the parables are thought by some to be literary not oral. The motivation for the gospels was not to record history, but to "proclaim the Good News", faith texts, NOT history texts. It's perfectly legitimate to reserve judgment, and say it's ALL problematic. In the end, it makes NO practical difference at all, to us today, if he existed or not.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-05-2017, 11:55 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 10:50 AM)Aractus Wrote:  "The reason for thinking that Jesus existed is because he is abundantly attested in early sources. That's why. And I give the details in my book. Early and independent sources indicate certainly that Jesus existed. One author that we know about knew Jesus's brother, and knew Jesus's closest disciple Peter. He's an eyewitness to both Jesus's closest disciple and his brother.

"So, I'm sorry, I respect your disbelief but if you want to go where the evidence goes I think that atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism because frankly it makes you look foolish to the outside world. If that's what you're going to believe you just look foolish. You are much better off going with historical evidence and arguing historically rather than coming up with the theory that Jesus didn't exist."[/i] - Bart Ehrman.

Ehrman is quite wrong here. The "early sources" he refers to don't confirm the existence of Jesus, only the existence of Jesus stories. Finally, he ought to know that ridicule doesn't stand in place of a refutation.

The facts show a stunning silence in place of the alleged "early sources" where Jesus is supposed to have abundant attestations for his existence. The primary objection is that contemporary sources, such as Philo-Judaeus and Justus of Tiberias, fail to mention Jesus at all.

Philo-Judaeus of Alexandria (15 BCE - 50 CE) was a Greek speaking Jewish theologian-philosopher and a contemporary of Jesus. He knew Jerusalem personally because of family living there. He wrote extensively on Jewish history and religion from a Greek perspective and taught the following concepts all prominent in John's Gospel and Paul's epistles: God and His Word are one; the Word is the first-begotten Son of God; God created the world through His Word; God holds all things together through His Word; the Word is the fountain of eternal life; the Word dwells in and among us; all judgment is committed to God's Word; and the Word never changes. Philo also taught on God as Spirit, the Trinity, the virgin birth, Jews who sin will go to hell, Gentiles who come to God will be saved and go to heaven, and God is love and forgives. Yet Philo never once mentions anybody named Jesus nor any miracle worker being crucified and resurrected in Jerusalem, let alone an eclipse, an earthquake, or graves opening and resurrected Jewish saints walking the streets of Jerusalem.

The writings of Justus of Tiberias have been lost, but Photius, the patriarch of Constantinople from 878-886 CE wrote Bibleotheca in which he reviewed the writings of Justus of Tiberias: "...of the advent of Jesus, of the things that befell him one way or another, or of the miracles that he performed, (Justus) makes absolutely no mention." Justus' home was Tiberias in Galilee (John 6:23). Justus' writing preceded Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews c. 93 CE, so it is probable he lived and wrote during or immediately after the alleged era of Jesus, yet remarkably he makes absolutely no mention of him.
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10-05-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Come on.....the Holocaust example is just plain stupid, and you know it.
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10-05-2017, 12:00 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 12:35 PM by Aractus.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 11:37 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Ffs we have film of the holocaust I am a first hand witness to someone who was there in person that's hard evidence and also definitive proof you cannot make a comparison with hj and holocaust you are being deliberately dishonest.

Again, not I'm trying to offend anyone - that's exactly what Ehrman originally said. I was at the Australian premiere of German Concentration Camps Factual Survey, which was intended to be a propaganda film. At the show one person asked if the film was going to be widely released because it's exactly the kind of thing that deniers would love. I am actually saddened that it has been released on DVD for that very reason. And do you know what it's evidence of? It's evidence that sometimes people manufacture propaganda material with fabricated evidence.

For example, they claim in the film that Dachau had an operational gas chamber. Now we know that's not the case - it did have a gas chamber, but it had never been used. And this is a contemporary account, after the film-makers had personally visited the camps right after they were liberated! So you see, even when you have "evidence" from eyewitnesses it's not always right. With the holocaust there is a lot of information out there that is not 100% correct. You can build the case for whatever you want to believe by simply only looking at the evidence that supports it and claiming that other evidence is "low quality".

So with that said, the people that are best placed to sort through the evidence and tell us what we have are professional historians.

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10-05-2017, 12:14 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 11:56 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Come on.....the Holocaust example is just plain stupid, and you know it.

I think he's only using that because Ehrman used it, and Ehrman is a "professional historian". I like Ehrman and have most of his books, but I'm a bit skeptical of his credentials as a historian (I think of him more as a Biblical scholar), and in event, he's not immune to making silly statements and being wrong sometimes. None of us are.

I agree that comparing the historicity of Jesus to that of the holocaust is silly, whether or not Ehrman does so.
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