If Jesus Never Existed...
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10-05-2017, 12:26 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 12:37 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 11:29 AM)Aractus Wrote:  That's right, you wouldn't use the term "definitive proof" when talking about historical documents, even for an event like the holocaust. But you use the term "hard evidence".

And since you have none, all your ranting is nonsense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

"Historians do allow for the use of anonymous texts to establish historical facts".
Since we know for a fact, the writers of the gospels were not the 4 evangelists, there goes those sources. Facepalm

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10-05-2017, 12:34 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 12:14 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I like Ehrman and have most of his books, but I'm a bit skeptical of his credentials as a historian (I think of him more as a Biblical scholar), and in event, he's not immune to making silly statements and being wrong sometimes.

What the hell? A bible scholar is by definition a historian! Would you suggest that English literature scholars are not historians too?

Anyway, back to the point. The fact that some evidence has problems doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater. If all we had were the letters of Paul there would still be ample evidence for Jesus's historicity. He knew James and Peter, and many other figures in the early church whom he names (Barnabas, Luke, Timothy, etc), and Acts corroborates that Paul knew those people.

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10-05-2017, 12:39 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 12:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 12:14 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I like Ehrman and have most of his books, but I'm a bit skeptical of his credentials as a historian (I think of him more as a Biblical scholar), and in event, he's not immune to making silly statements and being wrong sometimes.

What the hell? A bible scholar is by definition a historian! Would you suggest that English literature scholars are not historians too?

No. Both Biblical scholars and literary scholars may do some historical research (although this is not necessary if they are primarily textual analysts), but that doesn't make them historians in the same sense as someone who is primarily a historian. As an analogy, all scientists (and particularly physicists) use mathematics, but a physicist is not a mathematician.
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10-05-2017, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 12:52 PM by Aractus.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Actually, since I used the example of English literature scholars, you might remember that some people made noise claiming that Shakespeare never really wrote any plays, or that he didn't even exist. They made all the same arguments that are being made for a mythical Jesus - for example, he was too literate to have come from a peasant family. Anyway, guess what? Ask any English literature scholar what they think, and they all agree that Shakespeare and wrote stuff. And I might add that there's much less information about Shakespeare himself than there is about, for example we know the name's of Jesus's parents, we know the names of his brothers, we know the names of his close associates, and we know how and when he died. I guess we know most of that stuff for Shakespeare, however we don't know much about him when he was writing plays. Was he a mad alcoholic? Did he have many friends? When did he even start writing? What was his career beforehand? We don't know.

"The rise of historical criticism, which challenged the authorial unity of Homer's epics and the historicity of the Bible, also fuelled emerging puzzlement over Shakespeare's authorship, which in one critic's view was "an accident waiting to happen"." (Wikipedia).

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10-05-2017, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 12:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 12:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  What the hell? A bible scholar is by definition a historian! Would you suggest that English literature scholars are not historians too?

Actually neither of them are, necessarily, "by definition".

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10-05-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 12:47 PM)Aractus Wrote:  And I might add that there's much less information about Shakespeare himself than there is about, for example we know the name's of Jesus's parents, we know the names of his brothers, we know the names of his close associates, and we know how and when he died.

We "know" the names of all the Greek myth personages also, and their families and associates. Weeping

All you "know" is what is written in texts written by people who did not know him. All you "know" is what they believed about him.

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10-05-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 12:00 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 11:37 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Ffs we have film of the holocaust I am a first hand witness to someone who was there in person that's hard evidence and also definitive proof you cannot make a comparison with hj and holocaust you are being deliberately dishonest.

Again, not I'm trying to offend anyone - that's exactly what Ehrman originally said. I was at the Australian premiere of German Concentration Camps Factual Survey, which was intended to be a propaganda film. At the show one person asked if the film was going to be widely released because it's exactly the kind of thing that deniers would love. I am actually saddened that it has been released on DVD for that very reason. And do you know what it's evidence of? It's evidence that sometimes people manufacture propaganda material with fabricated evidence.

For example, they claim in the film that Dachau had an operational gas chamber. Now we know that's not the case - it did have a gas chamber, but it had never been used. And this is a contemporary account, after the film-makers had personally visited the camps right after they were liberated! So you see, even when you have "evidence" from eyewitnesses it's not always right. With the holocaust there is a lot of information out there that is not 100% correct. You can build the case for whatever you want to believe by simply only looking at the evidence that supports it and claiming that other evidence is "low quality".

So with that said, the people that are best placed to sort through the evidence and tell us what we have are professional historians.

You're starting to sound like David Stirling.
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10-05-2017, 02:56 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 04:28 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 12:00 PM)Aractus Wrote:  So with that said, the people that are best placed to sort through the evidence and tell us what we have are professional historians.

Actually that's not true.
Ancient Near Eastern literature was unique, (as they probably all were).
Without specialized knowledge of the cultures involved, the myth systems, and the cultural development and context of their literature, one cannot understand or interpret their texts.
Most "professional historians", unless specifically trained in those areas, cannot that. To wit, Gary Habermas thinks he's an expert on Paul, and the ressurection. Weeping

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10-05-2017, 06:59 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(10-05-2017 01:44 PM)adey67 Wrote:  You're starting to sound like David Stirling.

Do you mean David Irving? Irving is completely antisemitic. I think that Richard Carrier sounds a lot like Irving actually.

But look, I reject the suggestion that I'm anything like a denier. I've been trying to find a specific video of Michael Shermer where he is asked "why are there holocaust deniers" and he says "because ... they're ... stupid", and then he goes on with how frustrating it is stating that he would have respect for them if when they are presented with clear evidence they change their minds like the critically-minded people they claim to be. He has taken the time in the past to actually debate deniers. IIRC he even went to some "revisionist" conference and debated someone there. I have great respect for Shermer anyway, as for Irving though he is the scum of the earth IMHO.

You have every right to ask questions - I think everyone does and everyone should. And no one should be shamed for not knowing something about history, and wanting to know more. But I agree 100% when Ehrman when he says you have to go where the evidence takes you, and the mythicist belief just makes you look foolish.

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10-05-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Lol yes I did mean Irving, was watching an SAS documentary at the time of writing, you can be David Stirling if you want though Wink
Look I know you're not a denier I just think comparing mythicists to them is a false comparison.
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