If Jesus Never Existed...
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25-04-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 10:42 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  An article in the October 3, 2003 issue of The Jewish Week [Eric J. Greenberg, "Jesus' Death Now Debated by Jews"] raises the question of whether the Talmud and other rabbinic literature provide historical information about the role played by Jewish individuals or institutions in the death of Jesus. Prof. Michael Cook here explains that these materials were shaped by the circumstances of Jews and Christians centuries after the crucifixion and so provide no historical data about that event itself."

https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/res..._Jesus.htm

Still researching this

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25-04-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

Well there's different theories, but we have a bunch of big clues that Jesus wasn't the messiah that history, thankfully, left behind for us.

Quote:This isn't the same as asking how did the stories of Zeus/Odin etc exist because they are obviously 'gods' and were never deemed to be human. But there's this story about a man called Jesus, who walked and talked in Galilee and spoke to people etc.

Hercules?

Good people have been confabulated upon since the dawn of time. Jesus wasn't the first. Claims about him just happened to be made right around the time that a sophisticated elite were in the middle of trying to conquer good bits of Asia, Africa, and the known western world.

Quote:So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

I can understand how the supernatural stories might be called a myth, but surely that myth had to have come from somewhere?

This is the most likely, rational explanation for a historical Jesus. It is more likely, that the Romans killed Jesus himself, if he had amassed any respectable size following. The Romans didn't like small sects springing up, at all. That's why they hung crosses all over the place. Don't screw around with us, or this is what's going to happen to you.

There was a lot of Christian material written around the time the early church formed. Lots of it contradicts what you would read in what we consider the Bible. If you read what is internationally and generically considered the Bible, give or take a few books, the entire NT has a decidedly pro-Roman tilt. 100%. And from a historical perspective, this is very, very fishy.

Question: Why and how did a bunch of fishermen write in flawless, Coine Greek?
Answer: They didn't.

Jesus also seems to resemble other Roman Godmen figures that were worshipped right around that time. It is more than likely that Christianity originated as a Jewish cult, that took on, initially, a bit of a Roman spin so as to increase its palatability. Christianity has a fairly dark history of incorporating pagan traditions from nearby religions, so that they can make it sound more truthful to the people who first hear about it. "Hey! That's in our religion! That must be truer then!" type of reaction.

What should be abundantly clear about its dubious origins is that the Jewish people still exist, and in that time period for the most part, outrightly rejected him as the messiah. It was Constantine that made Christianity famous.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/carlgregg/2...ti-jewish/

My Regards on your search for truth! Smile

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25-04-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
SeaJay, no offense, but you seem like you really WANT there to be a real Jesus, and it seems like whenever something is coming up that on the surface gives credence to a real Jesus, you're taking it for face value you without doing any hint of skepticism.

Look at the things you've posted and how quickly you seem to make a conclusion, and there are very simple and seemingly obvious problems with the "evidence". I mean you're basically doing the same thing with these accounts that Christians do with the Bible, i.e. "Why would the writers of the NT lie about anything?"
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25-04-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 10:35 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  But the Jews writing in the Talmud who saw Jesus as an enemy still wrote about him. They never deny he existed, but actually comment on him. As for it being another Jesus, going by the narrative, I'd have to say they are on about the Jesus of the bible who tried (in their eyes) leading them into apostasy.

The Talmud mentions more than Jesus who were tried and found guilty of that.

There are so many problems with the so called "new Testament" that it's nearly impossible to list them all.

The first being that Jesus didn't fulfill any of the requirements for a "messiah" not a one...

There is no Jewish prophesy that says he's got to be god or god's son. There's nothing about a virgin birth...there's nothing about performing miracles. No getting tortured (the real Messiah wouldn't need to be) no being nailed to a cross. He would be known by what he accomplished. Jesus failed on every mark and it's illegal to claim to be something your not...

It wasn't uncommon at the time and still happens today. People are still jailed for claiming to be the messiah --- TODAY.

The messiah was supposed to abolish war, reunite all the Jewish people (not under a new religion -- but as Jews), eliminate all the enemies and live forever in peace. Then they would rebuild the temple. This is why Paul went through so much detail trying to prove that Jebus was from the house of David, because that was a requirement -- but he still failed on everything -- clearly he was a nut.

And he was supposed to all that the first time....not leave, hang out in heaven and return.

A final note, Paul had issues with Judaism, which is why people who actually "knew" Jesus were practicing jews -- as was Jesus. The whole narrative about not needing to follow the torah, is complete bullshit. Then you have the problem with the text being written in greek. Hebrew is the language that god supposedly gave his people...why would he change it to something else? Again, it's a manufactured narrative that Paul concocted.

Once I realized all this, I nearly became Jewish. Until I studied where Judaism came from....Then the onion...well just had no layers left...


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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25-04-2017, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2017 11:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
In the decades and centuries before the editors of the gospels began to be assembled/edited, there were a number of messianic figures. It is possible, in an age with NO RECORD KEEPING at all, that stories and accounts of them, and other circulating mythic personages, were conflated into one person.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...n-display/

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25-04-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Jesus was not Jesus but another man with the same name.

Whether Jesus was an actual person or not is irrelevant. The Jesus legend is the focus of the religion and if there was no Jesus the legend would have arisen about John Doe. Legends have to have a human persona. But the legend is what's important, not the persona.
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25-04-2017, 11:16 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

This isn't the same as asking how did the stories of Zeus/Odin etc exist because they are obviously 'gods' and were never deemed to be human. But there's this story about a man called Jesus, who walked and talked in Galilee and spoke to people etc.

So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

I can understand how the supernatural stories might be called a myth, but surely that myth had to have come from somewhere?
Yep, from bullshitters who want to fluff up their religion.
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25-04-2017, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2017 11:28 AM by SeaJay.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 10:54 AM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

Well there's different theories, but we have a bunch of big clues that Jesus wasn't the messiah that history, thankfully, left behind for us.

Quote:This isn't the same as asking how did the stories of Zeus/Odin etc exist because they are obviously 'gods' and were never deemed to be human. But there's this story about a man called Jesus, who walked and talked in Galilee and spoke to people etc.

Hercules?

Good people have been confabulated upon since the dawn of time. Jesus wasn't the first. Claims about him just happened to be made right around the time that a sophisticated elite were in the middle of trying to conquer good bits of Asia, Africa, and the known western world.

Quote:So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

I can understand how the supernatural stories might be called a myth, but surely that myth had to have come from somewhere?

This is the most likely, rational explanation for a historical Jesus. It is more likely, that the Romans killed Jesus himself, if he had amassed any respectable size following. The Romans didn't like small sects springing up, at all. That's why they hung crosses all over the place. Don't screw around with us, or this is what's going to happen to you.

There was a lot of Christian material written around the time the early church formed. Lots of it contradicts what you would read in what we consider the Bible. If you read what is internationally and generically considered the Bible, give or take a few books, the entire NT has a decidedly pro-Roman tilt. 100%. And from a historical perspective, this is very, very fishy.

Question: Why and how did a bunch of fishermen write in flawless, Coine Greek?
Answer: They didn't.

Jesus also seems to resemble other Roman Godmen figures that were worshipped right around that time. It is more than likely that Christianity originated as a Jewish cult, that took on, initially, a bit of a Roman spin so as to increase its palatability. Christianity has a fairly dark history of incorporating pagan traditions from nearby religions, so that they can make it sound more truthful to the people who first hear about it. "Hey! That's in our religion! That must be truer then!" type of reaction.

What should be abundantly clear about its dubious origins is that the Jewish people still exist, and in that time period for the most part, outrightly rejected him as the messiah. It was Constantine that made Christianity famous.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/carlgregg/2...ti-jewish/

My Regards on your search for truth! Smile
Thanks Cosmo.

Interesting reply and it makes sense.

However, my question is not so much why things were written about Jesus, and what motivations they might have had, but that things were written about him at all. Like the verses in the Talmud.

The Jews had no reason to mention Jesus, he was their enemy. If they wanted people to forget Jesus ever existed, then they wouldn't write about him and keep his name alive. But they did write about him in the Talmud.

That said, what little research I've done on this Talmud topic, seems to convey that the Jews were not so much commenting on what happened around 30AD, but more replying to other Christian narratives that were springing up much later (like, 250 500 years later).

Explanation for Talmud Text Mentioning Jesus
"However we explain this and still other rabbinic traditions, the overall judgment remains warranted: the rabbis convey little if anything reliable about the historical Jesus. Plausibly, Jewish views of Jesus in any one era could have influenced--even determined--those of succeeding years. If, as argued, Jesus had not been well-known among Jews during the time of his own ministry, the Jewish tradition might not have gotten off to an accurate understanding of who he was. Such a circumstance could readily have given rise not only to misconceptions about Jesus emerging relatively early on, but to their retention and embellishment by Jews of later periods as well."

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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25-04-2017, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2017 11:25 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

This isn't the same as asking how did the stories of Zeus/Odin etc exist because they are obviously 'gods' and were never deemed to be human. But there's this story about a man called Jesus, who walked and talked in Galilee and spoke to people etc.

So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

I can understand how the supernatural stories might be called a myth, but surely that myth had to have come from somewhere?

You know how. People embellished and flat out made them up. Remember back in the summer of 2013 there was a wreck and a woman was trapped in her car. There appeared this priest out of nowhere. No one saw him walking up. they called him the miracle priest. Some thought he was an angel. He supposedly spoke with a strange accent and didn't appear in some photographs. People reported all sorts of strange things about this priest. He prayed over the victim and then disappeared. It was all over the news and I remember lots of forum posts about it on freerepublic.com at the time. Three or four days later he came forward. He was a Catholic priest from a nearby town. He had parked a quarter mile away so he wouldn't get in the way of emergency vehicles. He walked in while everyone was working on the car. Their tool had run out it's battery. He prayed over the victim and then left as quickly to not interfere. A new tool arrived with a fresh battery and they were able to get her out.

On one thread after the priest had come forward, one poster said flat out that he thought people should believe the other stories even if it turned out not to be true because it would help people to strengthen their faith.

There you have it. That was only three days and look how it got blown out of proportion and those people were actually there. Imagine what it would be blown up to now if he had never come forward. People would be certain that it was a real angel come down from heaven. Imagine what it would be like after 10, 20 or 30 years.

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25-04-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 10:58 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  SeaJay, no offense, but you seem like you really WANT there to be a real Jesus, and it seems like whenever something is coming up that on the surface gives credence to a real Jesus, you're taking it for face value you without doing any hint of skepticism.
Actually, the opposite is true. I do not want Jesus to have existed because all my fears and anxieties concerning hellfire would evaporate. Also, I'm not taking anything at face value, which is why I am researching the topic.

(25-04-2017 10:58 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Look at the things you've posted and how quickly you seem to make a conclusion, and there are very simple and seemingly obvious problems with the "evidence". I mean you're basically doing the same thing with these accounts that Christians do with the Bible, i.e. "Why would the writers of the NT lie about anything?"
I'm not posting this stuff to try to prove Jesus existed, I'm doing it to try and prove Jesus didn't exist.

Look at it this way. If I go to a Christian website, and ask them what they thought about the text in the Talmud that seems to talk about Jesus, what do you think they're going to say? Something like "Yup. Not surprised. Even the enemies of Jesus concede he was a historical figure."

But I don't want to 'preach to the choir' as it were. That's why I throw these topics/questions here, because I know I'll get a non-Christian perspective on things.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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