If Jesus Never Existed...
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25-04-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 10:22 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Apparently, this was written about Jesus in the Talmud

"Yeshua of Nazarene was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried, “He is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed them into apostasy. Whosoever has anything to say in his defense, let him come and declare it.” As nothing was brought forward in his defense, he was hanged on Passover Eve."

I can't understand why enemies would write of a Jesus they saw as an enemy if this Jesus did not exist.

EDIT: From the wikipedia

"The Talmud contains passages that some scholars have concluded are references to Christian traditions about Jesus (Yeshua). The history of textual transmission of these passages is complex and scholars are not agreed concerning which passages are original, and which were added later or removed later in reaction to the actions of Christians."

You are leaving out a few key things here. This is from the book of Sadduces as I recall. The story says he was stoned, but also held for 40 days. Also, Yeshu/yeshua were fairly commom names as far as I am aware. Convert this to a modern saying: "and they took Steve of Chicago out to the place where the criminals were taken and he was sealed inside a great cage for the rest of his life."

Now if there is a guy from Chicago named steve who was put in prison for life (which I am 99% sure has happened at some point), does that make me a prophet? Does that make Steve (pbuh) divine? How do you know what Steve I am talking about? Remember, these were people living under Mosaic Law and stoning was prescribed for a TON of offenses. So which is more likely: that a popular guy named Yeshua was stoned for doing any of a number of things that would get you stoned in a backwoods part of Palastine, or that this Yeshua was actually god incarnate and for whatever reason, the Jews forgot or changed his mode of death?

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25-04-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 11:22 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

This isn't the same as asking how did the stories of Zeus/Odin etc exist because they are obviously 'gods' and were never deemed to be human. But there's this story about a man called Jesus, who walked and talked in Galilee and spoke to people etc.

So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

I can understand how the supernatural stories might be called a myth, but surely that myth had to have come from somewhere?

You know how. People embellished and flat out made them up. Remember back in the summer of 2013 there was a wreck and a woman was trapped in her car. There appeared this priest out of nowhere. No one saw him walking up. they called him the miracle priest. Some thought he was an angel. He supposedly spoke with a strange accent and didn't appear in some photographs. People reported all sorts of strange things about this priest. He prayed over the victim and then disappeared. It was all over the news and I remember lots of forum posts about it on freerepublic.com at the time. Three or four days later he came forward. He was a Catholic priest from a nearby town. He had parked a quarter mile away so he wouldn't get in the way of emergency vehicles. He walked in while everyone was working on the car. Their tool had run out it's battery. He prayed over the victim and then left as quickly to not interfere. A new tool arrived with a fresh battery and they were able to get her out.

On one thread after the priest had come forward, one poster said flat out that he thought people should believe the other stories even if it turned out not to be true because it would help people to strengthen their faith.

There you have it. That was only three days and look how it got blown out of proportion and those people were actually there. Imagine what it would be blown up to now if he had never come forward. People would be certain that it was a real angel come down from heaven. Imagine what it would be like after 10, 20 or 30 years.
I can't deny this makes sense, and I know this sort of thing happens.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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25-04-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 11:30 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 11:22 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  You know how. People embellished and flat out made them up. Remember back in the summer of 2013 there was a wreck and a woman was trapped in her car. There appeared this priest out of nowhere. No one saw him walking up. they called him the miracle priest. Some thought he was an angel. He supposedly spoke with a strange accent and didn't appear in some photographs. People reported all sorts of strange things about this priest. He prayed over the victim and then disappeared. It was all over the news and I remember lots of forum posts about it on freerepublic.com at the time. Three or four days later he came forward. He was a Catholic priest from a nearby town. He had parked a quarter mile away so he wouldn't get in the way of emergency vehicles. He walked in while everyone was working on the car. Their tool had run out it's battery. He prayed over the victim and then left as quickly to not interfere. A new tool arrived with a fresh battery and they were able to get her out.

On one thread after the priest had come forward, one poster said flat out that he thought people should believe the other stories even if it turned out not to be true because it would help people to strengthen their faith.

There you have it. That was only three days and look how it got blown out of proportion and those people were actually there. Imagine what it would be blown up to now if he had never come forward. People would be certain that it was a real angel come down from heaven. Imagine what it would be like after 10, 20 or 30 years.
I can't deny this makes sense, and I know this sort of thing happens.

Ok, but if you know this sort of thing happens, why did you make it seem like you couldn't understand why stories of Jesus could come out of virtually nothing?

If you are just trying to get a discussion going, you have a strange way of doing so.
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25-04-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:However, my question is not so much why things were written about Jesus, and what motivations they might have had, but that things were written about him regardless. Like the verses in the Talmud.

... ... ... I fail to understand the logic of your question so I'm just going to proceed to answer the next one.

Quote:The Jews had no reason to mention Jesus, he was their enemy. If they wanted people to forget Jesus ever existed, then they wouldn't write about him and keep his name alive. But they did write about him in the Talmud.

This goes back to what we were saying before. The Jews do not, at any point, have any good things to say about this character that may or may not be the Jesus that Christians assume to be the Christ. The Jews never accepted Jesus as the Messiah. He did not fulfill the requirements to be the messiah in his own religious system, which he likely just practiced like everyone else, if he existed. As Momsurroundedbyboys pointed out the lengths the early church went to in order to try to form Jesus into the Christ are embarrassing.

Also, the Talmud has undergone Christian censorship on numerous occasions throughout history. You're familiar with The Inquisition?

Anyways, the most poignant passage in the Talmud to which you're referring is probably this one.

"On (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover Jesus the Nazarene was hanged and a herald went forth before him forty days heralding, 'Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and instigated and seduced Israel to idolatry. Whoever knows anything in defense may come and state it.' But since they did not find anything in his defense they hanged him on (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Do you suppose that Jesus the Nazarene was one for whom a defense could be made? He was a mesit (someone who instigated Israel to idolatry), concerning whom the Merciful [God]says: Show him no compassion and do not shield him (Deut. 13:9). With Jesus the Nazarene it was different. For he was close to the government."

This passage is in Sanhedrin 43.

So if Jesus existed, which again continues to seem less and less likely as history dives into the mystery, he was considered by the Jewish community at large to be a blasphemer and an idolater who committed sorcery. There are other Jesus' mentioned in the Talmud, but they're lineage is named different as 'Son of Pantiri' et. al. So I would be careful to take those to mean the Christian Jesus when lineage is incredibly important to the Jewish people.

Regards!

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25-04-2017, 11:37 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 11:19 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  ---
That said, what little research I've done on this Talmud topic, seems to convey that the Jews were not so much commenting on what happened around 30AD, but more replying to other Christian narratives that were springing up much later (like, 250 500 years later).
---

Yes, and as previously mentioned elsewhere, Jesus is also mentioned in Qur'an. Will you need to research that, too? Remember to go back to front for chronological sense.

I liked the parts with the al-Jinnis - that was crazy shit. Shy

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25-04-2017, 11:43 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
If Jesus EVER existed, why didn't anybody write down what he said, on the spot?
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25-04-2017, 11:49 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 11:43 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  If Jesus EVER existed, why didn't anybody write down what he said, on the spot?

Yup - and in those days, the Romans liked to keep track of local skirmishes for future reference. A lot was about furthering one's political career. Wink

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25-04-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Still, any mention would have been very local. You don't bother Rome with crap going on out in the boondocks. Shy

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25-04-2017, 12:03 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Thanks all for the replies

This pretty much puts the Talmud topic to bed

http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id4.html

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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25-04-2017, 12:11 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2017 12:16 PM by SeaJay.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 11:33 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Ok, but if you know this sort of thing happens, why did you make it seem like you couldn't understand why stories of Jesus could come out of virtually nothing?
Just because I know this sort of thing happens, that doesn't mean it happened concerning the historicity of Jesus. That's why I had to do a little researched to figure out what happened in this instance.

(25-04-2017 11:33 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  If you are just trying to get a discussion going, you have a strange way of doing so.
I have explained a couple of times why I use the tactics I do. In case you missed it, I'll explain again.

Due to the 'intrusive thoughts,' I experience now and again, I have had a terrible time with anxiety and fear of going to hell, because most of my intrusive thoughts centred around the Holy Spirit. I've spent a lot of money on therapy during the last 7 years but not of it has really helped. Not long term.

Because I felt so terrible on times, twice I almost became a voluntary patient at a local mental hospital because I was barely coping.

The only way out of this living 'hell' I was going through, was to see if I could convince myself Christianity was false. That is why I come here to test my faith, to research secular academia about the history of Christianity. If I can convince myself Christianity isn't real, my phobia of hell, which as basically ruined my life since 2010, disappears.

So if, for example, I start a thread that says

"Archaeological Discovery Strong Evidence for the Historical Jesus", I'm doing so in an attempt to hopefully find out the claim is not true.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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