If Jesus Never Existed...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-04-2017, 07:48 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote: This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?


How did the stories about Osiris, Zeus, Marduk, Thor, Quetzlcoatl, Shiva, etc., etc. originate? Humans have vivid imaginations. You apparently think your godboy was real.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Minimalist's post
25-04-2017, 08:23 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
I wrote a book about a fictional superhero.
If this superhero didn't exist, how did I write the book ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Rahn127's post
26-04-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 02:28 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 02:26 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  The whole 'Jesus mentioned in the Talmud' topic is a good example of why I ask these types of questions. I'm trying to avoid the situation wherein I say "Ok that's that, I'm an atheist", only to find out the very next day that there's so-called irrefutable evidence that Jesus actually existed/Christianity is true. Evidence that might not shake your non-beliefs, but may well shake mine.

I understand I'm never going to know everything 100% for sure, but I am trying to alleviate the issues that might arise as much as I can by researching as much as I can. It might take another 24 hours or another 24 years. But I need to be sure about this decision to the best of my ability.

I've been Christian for a very long time, so I expect this might take some time.

After two thousand years where would this "irrefutable evidence" suddenly come from?
Perhaps some archaeological discovery. Perhaps a manuscript or, something.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-04-2017, 12:42 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 03:58 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Keep in mind that evidence that Jesus existed would be separate from evidence that xianity is true. Did King Arthur or Robin Hood exist? There's some speculation that both are at least loosely based on historical people but romanticized into the mythological characters that they've become. Most atheists are pretty comfortable with the idea of some itinerant street preacher getting himself into trouble with the Romans because that probably happened multiple times. Whether one or more of them is at the core of the Jesus legend is pretty irrelevant in the end. The magical claims are wholly unsupported even if you accept the pretty flimsy evidence for historicity.
That's a good point

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-04-2017, 12:47 AM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2017 01:07 AM by SeaJay.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 04:49 PM)Anjele Wrote:  SeaJay is yanking chains...a lot of them who should know better than to fall for this
apologist.
Honestly, I'm not. I understand why you'd think that, probably because of all the apologists that come here. But I assure you I am not doing that

(25-04-2017 04:49 PM)Anjele Wrote:  He's afraid of hell and is convinced there was a Jesus of virgin birth who disappeared for most of his supposed life only to come into the picture so that he could be put to death and come back again to save souls.
No I'm not 100% convinced of a virgin birth yes I am afraid of hell

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-04-2017, 12:51 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:24 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Well we've already proven that you have absolutely no basis for believing Jesus was the Messiah or that anything he said was authentic except for cognitive dissonance so I don't know of any other way I can help you.

Perhaps this resource can put your religion to bed.

http://www.kyroot.com

Also, perhaps you should look up the roots of Judaism, which is what the 'Messiah' believed in, so you can discover that they are also deeply polytheistic and pagan in their origins.

Regards!
Thanks for the link.

I've bought and am currently reading the 'History of God' book by Karen Armstrong

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SeaJay's post
26-04-2017, 01:06 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:36 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Excerpt taken from Kyroot.com

"The most absurd belief of Christianity

Christianity has actually convinced people that the just ‘punishment’ for living an average human life is an eternity of suffering. This is presented as what you deserve if you live a good life, doing your best, though, unavoidably, making a few mistakes along the way. But overall, you treat others kindly, pay your taxes, follow the laws, love and be loved, give to charities, help others, and try with all your might to be a good husband, wife, father, or mother. For doing just that, according to Christianity, God will send you to Hell. That is the default judgment. This is exactly what Christians MUST think is fair, or else they have no business following the faith.

[Image: Funniest_Memes_knock-knock-who-s-there-i...16896.jpeg]

Sure, they will say, yes, but you rejected the way out of this situation. But that is stupid- you can only reject that which you know to be true, and Christianity doesn’t even come close to demonstrating its truth."

So I'm hoping you can at least see from a philosophical point of view how a belief in hell has no place in a religion that actually believed in 'Sheol,' or the grave after death. They believed in a being who knew everything that you were going to do before you did it. This logically precludes, that there is no room within this religious train of thought, for a punishment, at least in an afterlife, for one's actions. If you look back at the OT, never once is any human being threatened by God with hell. Instead, he spends most of his time dealing out extremely painful punishments in THIS life for what most of us nowadays would see as trivialities. Most of the prophecies of the OT also elude to punishment for sin in this life, not another one. The fact that a large portion of Christianity daftly clings to such a toxic ideology, says sad things about its followers and much about the religion itself. I hope you can see how, philosophically, it is not good for an omnimax being to punish people for their decisions.

If you would like further clarification on the philosophy of it please let me know!

Regards!
Those are all valid points, none of which I can fully disagree with. I would though like to make one observation concerning this line of text:

"Sure, they will say, yes, but you rejected the way out of this situation. But that is stupid- you can only reject that which you know to be true, and Christianity doesn’t even come close to demonstrating its truth."

The problem for me is that my reasons for not wanting to believe have less to do with how much I may believe Christianity and much more to do with the fact that I have a phobia of going to hell.

So that being the case, there's a small part of me that worries, if Christianity is true, then there's a judgement, and when I'm judged, I am more guilty than others because I was trying not to believe. And if I was trying not to believe, then it stands to reason that on some level, I did believe.

It's like I'll be told "You did believe but destroyed your faith to the point you did not believe. I can understand those that lose all faith - but you set out to deliberately lose your faith."

I'd be worse off than most. If that makes sense.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-04-2017, 03:10 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 09:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  "From Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Pliny contributes the information that, where he was governor in northern Turkey, Christians worshipped Christ as a god. Neither of them liked Christians – Pliny writes of their “pig-headed obstinacy” and Tacitus calls their religion a destructive superstition."

Surely if even one of these documents are genuine, then Jesus existed historically? Reason being, I can't see why Tacitus and Pliny would make this stuff up. It might be that the news they received was bogus, but they thought what they were writing was true.
Tacitus never even mentioned a name, not Jesus, not Yeshua, no name at all. From where did he get his source of information? Perhaps early Christians or whatever they were called back then. Did he verify it or simply use it as back story to embellish what he was talking about. Seems it wasn't worthy of verifying, so just a side note to add some interest.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Stevil's post
26-04-2017, 03:24 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(26-04-2017 01:06 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  ... if Christianity is true, then there's a judgement, and when I'm judged, I am more guilty than others because I was trying not to believe. And if I was trying not to believe, then it stands to reason that on some level, I did believe.
On this, its up to you to decide on what kind of "god" you think might exist as well. In the bible, god in vengeful and angry, for little to no reason at all. And it suggests you need to be a believer and worship them in advance to get into the VIP Lounge in the sky.

However, general logic would dictate that IF there is a god or gods, they judge you on your actions in life, which as I've mentioned previously, I honestly believe I'm leading a better life than some fully fledged christians out there. And lets face it, if you die, then wake up in the queue to be judged, mate I'd instantly believe, so don't worry about it.

The other questions to ask yourself is: what if the other religions are true? Will you go to Nirvana? Will you reincarnate? Will you go to Valhalla and fight/drink/eat for all eternity? Its the same question you should worry about.

That and, maybe...just maybe...it's all complete bollocks and you're wasting your life worrying about nothing? I'd rather take a trip to the Sin-Bin knowing full well I haven't wasted my life than get into heaven for spending my mortal life on my knee's praising some big thing in the sky.

I don't want Fop, goddamn it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes OakTree500's post
26-04-2017, 03:39 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(26-04-2017 03:10 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 09:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  "From Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Pliny contributes the information that, where he was governor in northern Turkey, Christians worshipped Christ as a god. Neither of them liked Christians – Pliny writes of their “pig-headed obstinacy” and Tacitus calls their religion a destructive superstition."

Surely if even one of these documents are genuine, then Jesus existed historically? Reason being, I can't see why Tacitus and Pliny would make this stuff up. It might be that the news they received was bogus, but they thought what they were writing was true.
Tacitus never even mentioned a name, not Jesus, not Yeshua, no name at all. From where did he get his source of information? Perhaps early Christians or whatever they were called back then. Did he verify it or simply use it as back story to embellish what he was talking about. Seems it wasn't worthy of verifying, so just a side note to add some interest.
I'm not sure of the details Stevil, but yes, good point, he doens't mention the name Jesus. But I'm wondering how many other 'Christs' this might have applied to.

That's if it isn't some sort of later interpolation

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: