If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
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22-03-2017, 02:11 PM
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(22-03-2017 01:34 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 11:43 AM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  I've paid some dues runnin' from cops. 1st world USA is nowhere near ready for rev soc-comm, may never be. Not enough peeps hungry enough yet and too much bread and circus to keep them "happy" and endlessly distracted. There are few groups though, coming up. Have to go to the 3rd World for that, prlly Africa. I may be headed there at some point in the medium future.

We still havent talked about the actual theme of the thread. You peeps have many sideshow 'tricks'.

I think it is germane to the conversation that we establish street cred as it were. From what I gather all your experiences are US centric, hardly a hot-bed of communistic experiences.

Some of us have had real world experience with communism, dictatorships and fascism, I have. With this in mind when I read your posts it is evidently clear to me that you haven’t experienced the very thing you espouse thus neutering much of your argument. Just sayin’.
Please elaborate.
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22-03-2017, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2017 03:59 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(22-03-2017 02:11 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 01:34 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I think it is germane to the conversation that we establish street cred as it were. From what I gather all your experiences are US centric, hardly a hot-bed of communistic experiences.

Some of us have had real world experience with communism, dictatorships and fascism, I have. With this in mind when I read your posts it is evidently clear to me that you haven’t experienced the very thing you espouse thus neutering much of your argument. Just sayin’.
Please elaborate.

I’ll tell you about one, I may not tell you about the other for personal reasons.

I took a job with an international company building gas stations for Shell and Mobil in Venezuela. I arrived there in 1998 some 15 months before Hugo Chavez came to power.

Conditions in the country at the time were at best fair. There was plenty of food, medical care was mostly subsidized by the State (with some odd exceptions), gasoline was dirt cheap also subsidized, plenty of work for those that wanted to work, public and private education (think religious), crime was a problem in certain geographic locations of the city (barrios) but overall the quality of life for most was on a scale from 1-10 a four or five...not great but there wasn’t scarcity. The country had a free press and television was unencumbered. Outside the city people farmed and lived very modestly. Venezuelans like love to party and drink their home brew of Polar beer. A work week ended about noon on Friday and wouldn’t start until midday on Monday. Dias feriados holidays were a dime a dozen.

The existing government was corrupt and had been for 25 years. They had milked a country rich in natural resources and had funneled most into the hands of a few. There were companies that their sole purpose was to help you navigate the corruption to obtain things like drivers licenses, official papers , etc. No postal service existed, road projects were sometimes abandoned in mid-construction. I don’t believe I saw a single public project being built in the three years+ I lived there. No major roadways, hospitals, parks, fire stations and so on. In other words Venezuela was a Democracy in name only, it was a true oligarchy. Power was passed between those within the inner sanctum as far as I could tell. It wasn’t communistic or fascist and it wasn’t a dictatorship.

The people became disillusioned with promises never kept, how could they be blamed? Nothing seemed to trickle down to make life better for the vast majority of Venezuelans. Older Venezuelans remembered the heydays of the early 1970’s with gas prices soaring and even the most humble citizen benefitting from the billions of dollars pouring onto the country. Taxi cab drivers flew to the US monthly to vacation and shop I was told.

Chavez made a failed coup attempt but was released and in 1999 is elected as President on a Populist platform shocking the status quo. People celebrated in the streets, I watched with fascination.

Almost immediately he creates a new National Assembly, rewrites the Constitution and starts a war against the private sector. You can read more here http://theconversation.com/how-todays-cr...plan-61474

All the promises he makes are unworkable, the very power he criticized in his predecessors as hurting the populace he takes for himself becoming for all intents and purposes a dictator. I often heard him speak and he was an uneducated buffoon. When he begins destroying the few things that worked in the country (some private ventures) it creates a vacuum and the economy goes from fair to poor to absolute shit. Crime skyrocketed. Kidnappings became a very real daily threat.

In my daily life I was caught up in impromptu riots a few times, I was tear gassed coming out of the university another time and on more than a few occasions drove by dead bodies on the side of the road; victims of crime.
The newspaper and television reporters were harassed, some were kidnapped as were judges who ruled unfavorably against the new government. Political appointees took over schools and inserted themselves in private enterprises as “observers”. Rioters were bussed in from the slums into downtown to disrupt whatever was pissing off the new comandante. Innocent people were hurt.

Wages were raised by decree, work hours decreased and private enterprise died a slowed death. Those with the means sent their money out of the country and eventually left as well. The happy workers with the wage increases and shorter work hours realized that without the business owner nothing from nothing is nothing. Hugo had no plan to take over these businesses, he just let them close and blamed the capitalist for the pain the workers were now facing. The masses who had so bitterly complained with a full belly about graft and corruption now had to complain on an empty stomach. Inflation soared in the black market. No one would sell you anything with government price caps in place. Sure a loaf of bread was supposed to cost 250 Bolivares (28 cents) but you couldn’t find one at that price. At 2500 Bolivares a loaf of bread would magically appear.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39359474
People were buying vehicles and home appliances and storing them in their garage as hedges against inflation.

I remember vividly having conversations with Venezuelans of all classes that Hugo was following his friend Castro’s playbook and they all said nothing like Cuba could ever happen in Venezuela, they scoffed and blew me off. Now look.

As of now there are reports of the military racketeering in food supplies while people go hungry
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-01-06/v...ing-people
Colombia has been inundated with economic refugees
https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-11-29/m...way-around
Crime is rampant (children ages 6-15 kill two soldiers)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39359474
and oil production is plummeting
http://seekingalpha.com/article/4057226-...kets-daily

So when I hear you promote violent overthrow to establish a communistic state I can only deduce that you haven’t lived through it. Only a sociopath would wish this on a society.

Corruption and graft may lead you to want to change the existing status quo but be careful what you wish for, not every cure is better than the symptom.


*fixing some grammar on my wall of text

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-03-2017, 04:19 PM
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(22-03-2017 03:45 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 02:11 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Please elaborate.

I’ll tell you about one, I may not tell you about the other for personal reasons.

I took a job with an international company building gas stations for Shell and Mobil in Venezuela. I arrived there in 1998 some 15 months before Hugo Chavez came to power.

Conditions in the country at the time were at best fair. There was plenty of food, medical care was mostly subsidized by the State (with some odd exceptions), gasoline was dirt cheap also subsidized, plenty of work for those that wanted to work, public and private education (think religious), crime was a problem in certain geographic locations of the city (barrios) but overall the quality of life for most was on a scale from 1-10 a four or five...not great but there wasn’t scarcity. The country had a free press and television was unencumbered. Outside the city people farmed and lived very modestly. Venezuelans like love to party and drink their home brew of Polar beer. A work week ended about noon on Friday and wouldn’t start until midday on Monday. Dias feriados holidays were a dime a dozen.

The existing government was corrupt and had been for 25 years. They had milked a country rich in natural resources and had funneled most into the hands of a few. There were companies that their sole purpose was to help you navigate the corruption to obtain things like drivers licenses, official papers , etc. No postal service existed, road projects were sometimes abandoned in mid-construction. I don’t believe I saw a single public project being built in the three years+ I lived there. No major roadways, hospitals, parks, fire stations and so on. In other words Venezuela was a Democracy in name only, it was a true oligarchy. Power was passed between those within the inner sanctum as far as I could tell. It wasn’t communistic or fascist and it wasn’t a dictatorship.

The people became disillusioned with promises never kept, how could they be blamed? Nothing seem to trickle down to make life better for the vast majority of Venezuelans. Older Venezuelans remembered the heydays of the early 1970’s with gas prices soaring and even the most humble citizen benefitting from the billions of dollars pouring onto the country. Taxi cab drivers flew to the US monthly to vacation and shop I was told.

Chavez made a failed coup attempt but was released and in 1999 is elected as President on a Populist platform shocking the status quo. People celebrated in the streets, I watched with fascination.

Almost immediately he creates a new National Assembly, rewrites the Constitution and starts a war against the private sector. You can read more here http://theconversation.com/how-todays-cr...plan-61474

All the promises he makes are unworkable, the very power he criticized in his predecessors as hurting the populace he takes for himself becoming for all intents and purposes a dictator. I often heard him speak and he was an uneducated buffoon. When he begins destroying the few things that worked in the country (some private ventures) it creates a vacuum and the economy goes from fair to poor to absolute shit. Crime skyrocketed. Kidnappings became a very real daily threat.

In my daily life I was caught up in impromptu riots a few times, I was tear gassed coming out of the university another time and on more than a few occasions drove by dead bodies on the side of the road; victims of crime.
The newspaper and television reporters were harassed, some were kidnapped as were judges who ruled unfavorably against the new government. Political appointees took over schools and inserted themselves in private enterprises as “observers”. Rioters were bussed in from the slums into downtown to disrupt whatever was pissing off the new comandante. Innocent people were hurt.

Wages were raised by decree, work hours decreased and private enterprise died a slowed death. Those with the means sent their money out of the country and eventually left as well. The happy workers with the wage increases and shorter work hours realized that without the business owner nothing from nothing is nothing. Hugo had no plan to take over these businesses, he just let them close and blamed the capitalist for the pain the workers were now facing. The masses who had so bitterly complained with a full belly about graft and corruption now had to complain on an empty stomach. Inflation soared in the black market. No one would sell you anything with government price caps in place. Sure a loaf of bread was supposed to cost 250 Bolivares (28 cents) but you couldn’t find one at that price. At 2500 Bolivares a loaf of bread would magically appear.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39359474
People were buying vehicles and home appliances and storing them in their garage as hedges against inflation.

I remember vividly having conversations with Venezuelans of all classes that Hugo was following his friend Castro’s playbook and they all said nothing like Cuba could ever happen in Venezuela, they scoffed and blew me off. Now look.

As of now there are reports of the military racketeering in food supplies while people go hungry
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-01-06/v...ing-people
Colombia has been inundated with economic refugees
https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-11-29/m...way-around
Crime is rampant (children ages 6-15 kill two soldiers)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39359474
and oil production is plummeting
http://seekingalpha.com/article/4057226-...kets-daily

So when I hear you promote violent overthrow to establish a communistic state I can only deduce that you haven’t lived through it. Only a sociopath would wish this on a society.

Corruption and graft may lead you to want to change the existing status quo but be careful what you wish for, not every cure is better than the symptom.
Interesting story.

Well, first of all, I havent studied Chavez and the Bolivaran rev all that much--I'm more into Mao's thing--and I am not particularly saying he was the greatest leader, organizer, etc. But he took power in '99 and one of the main goals was to re-nationalize Ven oil and usher in major land reform back to the rural peasant farmers. The US also reacted with its typical sanctions/embargoes economic warfare tactics, but not nearly as bad as w Cuba(Castro). This shit takes time and its real complicated and people have to really be organized and on board. Mistakes are made, they cant help but be made

Tillerson apparently was the guy for EXXON at the time when Chavez kicked there asses to the curb. Now Tilly is back on the scene--revenge.

Of course, the bourgeois class is targeted, they are the enemy of the prols, so they either flee(like the light skinned bourgois Cubans did to Miami), stay and join, or fight it and get killed. Thats the way of rev, they are violent and bloody. If a soc-comm rev emerges in the US--which it prlly wont--I will join it. Or I may be in Africa by then.

The CIA supposedly tried multiple hits on Chavez. Well, he's dead now. But he and Maduro have been regularly criticzed by soc-comms as not having their acts together nearly enough. Hey, its a 3rd World country, not alot of resources.

But this is a significant departure form the original post. It's typical. Bourgeois capitalists get you going in a thousand different directions and tangents, as they dont have much else to stand on in their arguments. And they are 1st World, they like and benefits from things just as they are.
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22-03-2017, 04:53 PM
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Well, first of all, I havent studied Chavez and the Bolivaran rev all that much--I'm more into Mao's thing--and I am not particularly saying he was the greatest leader, organizer, etc. But he took power in ’99 and one of the main goals was to re-nationalize Ven oil

He did and kept it all for himself and his cronies. Thumbsup

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton Wrote:  and usher in major land reform back to the rural peasant farmers.

Which he also did but now without the necessary machinery and know-how much of the land lies unused.

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton Wrote:  The US also reacted with its typical sanctions/embargoes economic warfare tactics,

Citation needed

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton Wrote:  Hey, its a 3rd World country, not alot of resources.

In 2016 11th largest oil producer in the world. Dodgy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...production

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton’ Wrote:  But this is a significant departure form the original post. It's typical. Bourgeois capitalists get you going in a thousand different directions and tangents, as they dont have much else to stand on in their arguments. And they are 1st World, they like and benefits from things just as they are.

Allow me to quote you,
(22-03-2017 02:11 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Please elaborate.

Anytime you start to lose an argument you make some off-the-cuff accusation that misdirects or directly contradicts something you already said. Typical commie shit, they get you going in a thousand different directions and tangents, as they don't have much else to stand on in their arguments..

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-03-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(22-03-2017 04:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Well, first of all, I havent studied Chavez and the Bolivaran rev all that much--I'm more into Mao's thing--and I am not particularly saying he was the greatest leader, organizer, etc. But he took power in ’99 and one of the main goals was to re-nationalize Ven oil

He did and kept it all for himself and his cronies. Thumbsup

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton Wrote:  and usher in major land reform back to the rural peasant farmers.

Which he also did but now without the necessary machinery and know-how much of the land lies unused.

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton Wrote:  The US also reacted with its typical sanctions/embargoes economic warfare tactics,

Citation needed

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton Wrote:  Hey, its a 3rd World country, not alot of resources.

In 2016 11th largest oil producer in the world. Dodgy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...production

(22-03-2017 04:19 PM)‘Fred Hampton’ Wrote:  But this is a significant departure form the original post. It's typical. Bourgeois capitalists get you going in a thousand different directions and tangents, as they dont have much else to stand on in their arguments. And they are 1st World, they like and benefits from things just as they are.

Allow me to quote you,
(22-03-2017 02:11 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Please elaborate.

Anytime you start to lose an argument you make some off-the-cuff accusation that misdirects or directly contradicts something you already said. Typical commie shit, they get you going in a thousand different directions and tangents, as they don't have much else to stand on in their arguments..
I think you're fairly clueless as the the subject of soc-comm, quite frankly, I dont even think you can define it. So, I take your comments on the subject with a grain of salt, You ARE, and always will be, a 1st World petit bourgeois capitalist apologist, so why should I worry about it?(rhetorical question).ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup

I'm an army of one here, so I got my hands full.
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23-03-2017, 07:13 AM
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(22-03-2017 05:04 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  I think you're fairly clueless as the the subject of soc-comm, quite frankly, I dont even think you can define it. So, I take your comments on the subject with a grain of salt, You ARE, and always will be, a 1st World petit bourgeois capitalist apologist, so why should I worry about it?(rhetorical question).ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup

I'm an army of one here, so I got my hands full.

Interesting, this coming from a guy who is an apologist for a solution he has no first hand experience with. Consider

The offer stands for a one way ticket to Caracas. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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23-03-2017, 10:33 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 10:36 AM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(23-03-2017 07:13 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 05:04 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  I think you're fairly clueless as the the subject of soc-comm, quite frankly, I dont even think you can define it. So, I take your comments on the subject with a grain of salt, You ARE, and always will be, a 1st World petit bourgeois capitalist apologist, so why should I worry about it?(rhetorical question).ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup

I'm an army of one here, so I got my hands full.

Interesting, this coming from a guy who is an apologist for a solution he has no first hand experience with. Consider

The offer stands for a one way ticket to Caracas. Thumbsup
You MUST realize that you are running out of cards in your deck and the "experience" card is one of the last of them. From there, it's straight up ad hom, which signals forfeiture.

(I actually DO have alot of experience(practicing commie-ism) in my day to day life, but such things are far beyond your comprehension at this point..glasshoppah. )

Deus meu! I didnt notice the ticket offer, can we make it Brasil instead? Would gave to be 2 way though, my local peeps need me too....

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23-03-2017, 10:44 AM
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
As a genuine question: can one person practice communism, as you've suggested you do, Fred?

My understanding is that communism/capitalism are systems used on whole nations, not one or two people? I get how you can study it, learn something from it possibly, but to actually practice it you would have need to have lived in a communist country? Or am I missing something?

"I don't do magic, Morty, I do science. One takes brains, the other takes dark eye liner" - Rick
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23-03-2017, 11:24 AM
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(23-03-2017 10:44 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  As a genuine question: can one person practice communism, as you've suggested you do, Fred?

My understanding is that communism/capitalism are systems used on whole nations, not one or two people? I get how you can study it, learn something from it possibly, but to actually practice it you would have need to have lived in a communist country? Or am I missing something?

He has yet to let us know how many people he lets live for free in his 2nd bedroom, walking the talk so to speak.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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23-03-2017, 11:27 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 11:33 AM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: If Jesus Was A Revolutionary...
(23-03-2017 11:24 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 10:44 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  As a genuine question: can one person practice communism, as you've suggested you do, Fred?

My understanding is that communism/capitalism are systems used on whole nations, not one or two people? I get how you can study it, learn something from it possibly, but to actually practice it you would have need to have lived in a communist country? Or am I missing something?

He has yet to let us know how many people he lets live for free in his 2nd bedroom, walking the talk so to speak.
Ok, this is getting a bit personal, OakTree500 and Circle(jerk, hahaha), why should I even go there for you? What's init for moi?

Ok, I will give you ONE little commie secret you can try out in your own little lives: go one day w/o using $. Then, when you get that down, do 2, then 3, etc. See how far you get before you cave and beg for mercy. Wink I hold the world's record, BTW, and no one on planet earf will come close to breaking it anytime soon. Neither of you will try it, cuz, no balls. Yeah, I sedit. Wink
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