If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
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10-02-2015, 10:41 PM
If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
I was railing away in the anti-prayer thread and made a statement that if prayer actually succeeded, and some god bent or broke the natural course of nature to answer the prayer, it would disrupt anyone whose actions depended on nature working according to natural law. And it hit me a bit later what that really meant: if prayer succeeds, science is useless.

So your kid sister is in the cancer ward with Final Stage Pancreatic cancer and all the family gathers round for another heavy prayer session. This time, a god listens, reaches down from the ether and rearranges the pancreatic cellular configuration enough to send the cancer into remission. The family is ecstatic.

The oncology staff, on the other hand, while elated, is puzzled. They now have an outlier data point they'd like to account for. And, even if not able to account for it, their database now shows one more remission, changing the statistics of oncological study. Most damaging, their conclusions of the efficacy and safety of therapies under test are skewed, totally unknown by them, by forces they will NEVER be able to account for.

NO scientific study, if prayer works, could begin to compile a valid statistical foundation for evaluating outcomes because the wild cards of answered prayer would make garbage of any mathematical models. Scientists trying to formulate the reliationships and mechanisms of natural function would confront, continually, events of answered prayer that violate every law they might manage to construct.

We would truly inhabit an unfathomable, permanently mysterious world in which NO action could have a predictable outcome.

That would be a terrifying world indeed, a world in which prayer works.

I'm glad we don't inhabit one.
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10-02-2015, 10:47 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
Good thing its bullshit, amarite?
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10-02-2015, 11:08 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(10-02-2015 10:41 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  I was railing away in the anti-prayer thread and made a statement that if prayer actually succeeded, and some god bent or broke the natural course of nature to answer the prayer, it would disrupt anyone whose actions depended on nature working according to natural law. And it hit me a bit later what that really meant: if prayer succeeds, science is useless.

So your kid sister is in the cancer ward with Final Stage Pancreatic cancer and all the family gathers round for another heavy prayer session. This time, a god listens, reaches down from the ether and rearranges the pancreatic cellular configuration enough to send the cancer into remission. The family is ecstatic.

The oncology staff, on the other hand, while elated, is puzzled. They now have an outlier data point they'd like to account for. And, even if not able to account for it, their database now shows one more remission, changing the statistics of oncological study. Most damaging, their conclusions of the efficacy and safety of therapies under test are skewed, totally unknown by them, by forces they will NEVER be able to account for.

NO scientific study, if prayer works, could begin to compile a valid statistical foundation for evaluating outcomes because the wild cards of answered prayer would make garbage of any mathematical models. Scientists trying to formulate the reliationships and mechanisms of natural function would confront, continually, events of answered prayer that violate every law they might manage to construct.

We would truly inhabit an unfathomable, permanently mysterious world in which NO action could have a predictable outcome.

That would be a terrifying world indeed, a world in which prayer works.

I'm glad we don't inhabit one.

Great insight!

If enough prayers were answered the data would be so random that it would invalidate all studies and research.

Beyond mysterious - it would be like living inside Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry where everyone gets to make incantations. It would be madness. Nothing would make sense.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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11-02-2015, 01:15 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
Ahh but then you can almost hear the distant rumble of fundies stampeding to the conclusion that "satan would create scientifically credible data to test your faith".

Sorry....had to say it. Morons will be morons...

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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11-02-2015, 06:32 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2015 07:59 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
You see, prayer changes us on the inside, it doesn't change things outside of us.

Let's use the trite CS Lewis quote that the execrable apologist Q used-

Quote:But to quote C.S. Lewis, who was asked why he prayed often after his second wife passed, "Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me!"

Even though the bible clearly says that god will heal you, it's apparent that gods 100% failure rate has caused this silly CS Lewis mindset to be used by apologists.

Here is one verse from the bible-

Quote:Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. --James 5:14-15

It sounds pretty clear here, that prayer does indeed affect things external to your mind. I note that when apologists are challenged on the ridiculous biblical claims, they are masters at providing an unfalsifiable assertion about how it is supposed to work.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-02-2015, 07:00 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
Let's test prayers "power".

But, we'll be scientific.

I'll be the control group.

Let's get some fundie in here, and have him pray we don't make fun of him.

We'll see who wins..


Smile

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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11-02-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(11-02-2015 01:15 AM)gofish! Wrote:  Ahh but then you can almost hear the distant rumble of fundies stampeding to the conclusion that "satan would create scientifically credible data to test your faith".

Sorry....had to say it. Morons will be morons...

If satan can kill and/or save enough people to make a statistically significant clinical observation such that god's random prayer responses are "noise", then satan is more powerful than god, or god doesn't care.
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11-02-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(10-02-2015 10:41 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  NO scientific study, if prayer works, could begin to compile a valid statistical foundation for evaluating outcomes because the wild cards of answered prayer would make garbage of any mathematical models.

Corollary: if prayer does work, it happens in ways that are so statistically insignificant as to be undetectable.

Take that prayer-proponents!
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11-02-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
Same as if i applied for a job and prayed to god I could get it. What is god going to do, re write my CV? Brainwash the interviewer? Kill the other candidates? Either way, if I need to pray for a miracle to get a job then I'm obviously not the right person for the job. Which could be fatal for many if the job was Pilot, Train Driver, Doctor etc.

You could argue that god would instill the skills into me to do the job.. Thus making school, college and university pointless and useless if knowledge can be magically granted.

Either way. I can't see any way for this to work.
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12-02-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(11-02-2015 01:28 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  Same as if i applied for a job and prayed to god I could get it. What is god going to do, re write my CV? Brainwash the interviewer? Kill the other candidates?

Sounds like a coworker. Says he and his sister prayed and God got him this job. It couldn't possibly be that he sticks with a job for years or that he's a combat veteran so he's dealt with intense pressure. No, no, couldn't be that.
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