If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
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27-02-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(25-02-2015 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-02-2015 03:13 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  Actually, we can fix that for you: "While some children grow up in loving families, God chooses to have some of his children grow up in homes where they are sexually abused in order to help them grow up, learn and experience joy."

Well, then your god is totally fucked up, and only a worthless piece of shit would would sit by and do nothing while a child grows up being sexually abused and do nothing, even though they have the power to stop it from happening.

So if God makes the abuser not abuse, should He then take free will away from the abuser, but not the intended victim? Is that a level playing field?

One minute you are saying that God helps people, and then the next you are saying that it interferes with free will if he does. You can't have it both ways.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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27-02-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(26-02-2015 11:15 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus became a dark-skinned Jew for our sin--right in the middle of the color scale of skin types...

And you know this HOW????

Odds are a guy from that time/area would look more like Yassar Arafat than Brad Pitt...... With bad teeth......

Are you unaware of what Sephardic Jews look like? I doubt you. Sorry.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-02-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(27-02-2015 07:01 AM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So if God makes the abuser not abuse, should He then take free will away from the abuser, but not the intended victim? Is that a level playing field?

One minute you are saying that God helps people, and then the next you are saying that it interferes with free will if he does. You can't have it both ways.

Of course we may. We may help our children at times but allow them to make their own mistakes at times also. You have free will, and your neighbor has free will also, but if you kill your neighbor, you have used your free will to end their free will in this world. What you are not mindful of is that God also free will in this example.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-02-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(27-02-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 07:01 AM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  One minute you are saying that God helps people, and then the next you are saying that it interferes with free will if he does. You can't have it both ways.

Of course we may. We may help our children at times but allow them to make their own mistakes at times also. You have free will, and your neighbor has free will also, but if you kill your neighbor, you have used your free will to end their free will in this world. What you are not mindful of is that God also free will in this example.

Why does god always favour the free will of the aggressor? Why does he allow the aggressor to have free will but not the victim?
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28-02-2015, 12:17 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(27-02-2015 03:37 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course we may. We may help our children at times but allow them to make their own mistakes at times also. You have free will, and your neighbor has free will also, but if you kill your neighbor, you have used your free will to end their free will in this world. What you are not mindful of is that God also free will in this example.

Why does god always favour the free will of the aggressor? Why does he allow the aggressor to have free will but not the victim?

Straightener beat me to it.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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02-03-2015, 03:34 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(27-02-2015 03:37 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course we may. We may help our children at times but allow them to make their own mistakes at times also. You have free will, and your neighbor has free will also, but if you kill your neighbor, you have used your free will to end their free will in this world. What you are not mindful of is that God also free will in this example.

Why does god always favour the free will of the aggressor? Why does he allow the aggressor to have free will but not the victim?

Where did you get that God always favors the free will of the aggressor? I have no idea what you're talking about. In this world, angry, aggressive people are prone to heart attacks, strokes and other ailments. These are not the only causes of heart attack and stroke, however, people do often reap what they sow.

The victim has free will--just not a weapon to hand--often that is why they are the victim. An innocent victim without a ready defense, a child, may grow up to continue the cycle of abuse or break the cycle of the abuse because they also have free will.

But perhaps I misread your question. Perhaps you are saying a person with a rope has more free will than a person tied with rope. The rope can increase or limit our mobility or power, but not our free will. Again, repeating:

*One person can use their free will to limit or harm another--or else they don't have free will--but God will judge them, too.

*God has free will, too.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-03-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
Why judge them? Why not intervene?

If I stood back and let someone commit an atrocity, but judged them later, I would be equally as guilty for not preventing it in the first place.

Why does god prevent some free will? Why can't I see through walls? Why can't I fly? Why can't I play the bass guitar very well despite years of struggling to learn? Why can't I excercise my free will to do any of that?
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03-03-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(02-03-2015 04:28 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  Why judge them? Why not intervene?

If I stood back and let someone commit an atrocity, but judged them later, I would be equally as guilty for not preventing it in the first place.

Why does god prevent some free will? Why can't I see through walls? Why can't I fly? Why can't I play the bass guitar very well despite years of struggling to learn? Why can't I excercise my free will to do any of that?

If God intervenes in every situation it isn't free will.

If you can't play guitar very well you may have exercised your free will to the extent of your power.

Again, free will and power are different things. You may use free will to rope off someone's freedom. But freedom isn't free will.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-03-2015, 07:31 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(27-02-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course we may. We may help our children at times but allow them to make their own mistakes at times also. You have free will, and your neighbor has free will also, but if you kill your neighbor, you have used your free will to end their free will in this world. What you are not mindful of is that God also free will in this example.

Parents also didn't craft the world they live in from whole cloth, so when they are parenting their children, they're working with the limitations imposed on them. God, supposedly, has no such limitations, since he created everything.

This is why God -> human analogies always fail. They place limitations on God that the apologist doesn't believe God has. Is your god great or not? If so, stop comparing him to humans.
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04-03-2015, 01:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2015 09:01 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(04-03-2015 07:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course we may. We may help our children at times but allow them to make their own mistakes at times also. You have free will, and your neighbor has free will also, but if you kill your neighbor, you have used your free will to end their free will in this world. What you are not mindful of is that God also free will in this example.

Parents also didn't craft the world they live in from whole cloth, so when they are parenting their children, they're working with the limitations imposed on them. God, supposedly, has no such limitations, since he created everything.

This is why God -> human analogies always fail. They place limitations on God that the apologist doesn't believe God has. Is your god great or not? If so, stop comparing him to humans.

I'm a parent and a child and a nephew, and a man, and a sinner. God is great and a parent, and Jesus called God Father. I have the right to call God Father based on Jesus's declaration.

God has many of the same emotional and creative qualities as humans, or can be thought of in Father and friend and loving person terms; this creates analogies that NEVER fail. My atheist friends seem hung on pretty grandiose questions of omnipotence and omniscience while I pray like this, "Father, you love Robby and everyone at TTA. Please help them understand and help me to love them more as well."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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