If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
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16-02-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(13-02-2015 09:26 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 08:18 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Do you know what disappears more often than anything else??

Q -- when confronted with a request for documentation.


.....

That was balls-on accurate.

I’ve been asking for a fucking citation on his preposterous claims for a week and all I’ve gotten is the Texas Sidestep.






“I hear him talking but nothing comes in.”

I've already answered you on another thread. You keep posting to each new thread I'm on without going back to check on your earlier postings.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-02-2015, 01:17 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
All,

You are now disagreeing amongst yourselves in recent posts, so who should I address? The ones saying there are no such things as illnesses that go into remission for yet-unknown causes or the people who say illnesses that do indeed go into remission for yet-unknown causes are due to statistical anomalies and not God?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-02-2015, 03:49 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(16-02-2015 01:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

You are now disagreeing amongst yourselves in recent posts, so who should I address? The ones saying there are no such things as illnesses that go into remission for yet-unknown causes or the people who say illnesses that do indeed go into remission for yet-unknown causes are due to statistical anomalies and not God?

Why not just prove that gawd did it since that's your claim? Consider

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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16-02-2015, 04:36 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(16-02-2015 01:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... there are no such things as illnesses that go into remission for yet-unknown causes ...

I don't think anyone has asserted that. We are far from understanding everything about every disease and the practice of medicine will forever hold "gobsmacking" moments for its practitioners. New diseases emerge, too, with their rates of natural remission unmeasurable until they've been around long enough to build a bell curve.

Hence you don't need to "address" that.

Quote:... illnesses that do indeed go into remission for yet-unknown causes are due to statistical anomalies and not God?

This is what you must address: on what basis do you discard nature as a cause for what has been already proven to be a natural, if rare, occurrence?

Why attribute to a god ANY event whose cause could be natural?
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16-02-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(16-02-2015 04:36 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Why attribute to a god ANY event whose cause could be natural?

Airportkid this question is the crux of the problem, the fly in the ointment and hits the nail on the head. Why indeed.

Just off the top of my head

-Tithings would go down
-Warm fuzzies would disappear
-Loss of power
-Loss of status
-Loss of self-importance
-Reality has a bite

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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17-02-2015, 11:38 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(16-02-2015 04:36 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(16-02-2015 01:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... there are no such things as illnesses that go into remission for yet-unknown causes ...

I don't think anyone has asserted that. We are far from understanding everything about every disease and the practice of medicine will forever hold "gobsmacking" moments for its practitioners. New diseases emerge, too, with their rates of natural remission unmeasurable until they've been around long enough to build a bell curve.

Hence you don't need to "address" that.

Quote:... illnesses that do indeed go into remission for yet-unknown causes are due to statistical anomalies and not God?

This is what you must address: on what basis do you discard nature as a cause for what has been already proven to be a natural, if rare, occurrence?

Why attribute to a god ANY event whose cause could be natural?

Because to do what you say/wrote above in your post, you have to prove something to be a natural occurrence. "Holy mackerel, you did indeed have three weeks to live when I saw you last but I cannot find a trace of cancer anywhere inside you" and etc. I'm talking about events that doctors find purely anomalous.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-02-2015, 12:16 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
If I have to pick between a doctor misdiagnosing a disease, and you having a buddy who created the entire universe, "curing someone".-- I'll take "Doctors Make Mistakes" for $1000 Alex.......

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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17-02-2015, 07:10 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(17-02-2015 11:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... you have to prove something to be a natural occurrence.

No. You're upside down. Supernatural cause is what has to be proved, not nature. The presumption is nature. It's what's explained 100% of everything yet explained. If nature has explained 100% of everything explained to date, there is no reason whatsoever to presume non-natural cause for anything not yet explained.

Quote: ...I'm talking about events that doctors find purely anomalous.

It sounds here like you're treating mere anomaly as indicative of supernatural cause. As if you're inscribing a line on the graph paper: occurrences beyond this percentile are supernatural because nothing beyond this percentile can happen naturally. So, what percentile is that? The 99th? The 99.99999? How would you come by that figure?

The anomalies that "gobsmack" doctors get plotted, and make the bell curves closer representations of nature. The events that fall on the rims of the bell curve might get way out there to the 99.99999999999999999999th percentile, but they're still on a bell curve. They're still nature.
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17-02-2015, 08:47 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(10-02-2015 10:41 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  ... And it hit me a bit later what that really meant: if prayer succeeds, science is useless.

So your kid sister is in the cancer ward with Final Stage Pancreatic cancer and all the family gathers round for another heavy prayer session. This time, a god listens, reaches down from the ether and rearranges the pancreatic cellular configuration enough to send the cancer into remission. The family is ecstatic.

The oncology staff, on the other hand, while elated, is puzzled. They now have an outlier data point they'd like to account for. And, even if not able to account for it, their database now shows one more remission, changing the statistics of oncological study. Most damaging, their conclusions of the efficacy and safety of therapies under test are skewed, totally unknown by them, by forces they will NEVER be able to account for.

NO scientific study, if prayer works, could begin to compile a valid statistical foundation for evaluating outcomes because the wild cards of answered prayer would make garbage of any mathematical models. Scientists trying to formulate the reliationships and mechanisms of natural function would confront, continually, events of answered prayer that violate every law they might manage to construct.

We would truly inhabit an unfathomable, permanently mysterious world in which NO action could have a predictable outcome.

That would be a terrifying world indeed, a world in which prayer works.

I'm glad we don't inhabit one.

Nope. The premise is flawed and the knowledge of science is pedestrian. I really don't know where to begin.

First, prayer and science are not mutually exclusive. They can exist together in reasonable fashion and mostly do. When prayer "succeeds", science is not useless. The reverse is also true: when science succeeds, prayer is not useless. Those kinds of positions are conceits and contrivances that have really no basis in reality that can be observed empirically.

For the made up story, there is no reason that most doctors and scientist would be puzzled by the "miracle". Outliers are included in the models and predictors of medical outcomes. People who defy the "odds" don't create concern or worry among most scientists. An outlier can "change the statistics" but not greatly. Frequently, we as scientists will run the stats with the outlier in it...and then again with the outlier removed. And then try to make sense of the science.

Further, the notion that 'NO scientific study, if prayer works, could begin to compile a valid statistical foundation for evaluating outcomes because the wild cards of answered prayer would make garbage of any mathematical model." is just ignorant, rubbish. If prayer were working, we would just include it as a variable in our models. It would be incorporated. We include wild card all of the time and they enhance mathematical and statistical models. It is kind of embarrassing when people who don't know science and are not trained in it, try to represent it and determine what can or cannot be.

There are all kinds of ways that Prayer could work and may be working. It would not be problematic or scary at all.

Just like it shouldn't be problematic or scary if science works without prayer.
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17-02-2015, 09:27 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(17-02-2015 08:47 PM)TheAlphaGriot Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 10:41 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  ... And it hit me a bit later what that really meant: if prayer succeeds, science is useless.

So your kid sister is in the cancer ward with Final Stage Pancreatic cancer and all the family gathers round for another heavy prayer session. This time, a god listens, reaches down from the ether and rearranges the pancreatic cellular configuration enough to send the cancer into remission. The family is ecstatic.

The oncology staff, on the other hand, while elated, is puzzled. They now have an outlier data point they'd like to account for. And, even if not able to account for it, their database now shows one more remission, changing the statistics of oncological study. Most damaging, their conclusions of the efficacy and safety of therapies under test are skewed, totally unknown by them, by forces they will NEVER be able to account for.

NO scientific study, if prayer works, could begin to compile a valid statistical foundation for evaluating outcomes because the wild cards of answered prayer would make garbage of any mathematical models. Scientists trying to formulate the reliationships and mechanisms of natural function would confront, continually, events of answered prayer that violate every law they might manage to construct.

We would truly inhabit an unfathomable, permanently mysterious world in which NO action could have a predictable outcome.

That would be a terrifying world indeed, a world in which prayer works.

I'm glad we don't inhabit one.

Nope. The premise is flawed and the knowledge of science is pedestrian. I really don't know where to begin.

First, prayer and science are not mutually exclusive. They can exist together in reasonable fashion and mostly do. When prayer "succeeds", science is not useless. The reverse is also true: when science succeeds, prayer is not useless. Those kinds of positions are conceits and contrivances that have really no basis in reality that can be observed empirically.

For the made up story, there is no reason that most doctors and scientist would be puzzled by the "miracle". Outliers are included in the models and predictors of medical outcomes. People who defy the "odds" don't create concern or worry among most scientists. An outlier can "change the statistics" but not greatly. Frequently, we as scientists will run the stats with the outlier in it...and then again with the outlier removed. And then try to make sense of the science.

Further, the notion that 'NO scientific study, if prayer works, could begin to compile a valid statistical foundation for evaluating outcomes because the wild cards of answered prayer would make garbage of any mathematical model." is just ignorant, rubbish. If prayer were working, we would just include it as a variable in our models. It would be incorporated. We include wild card all of the time and they enhance mathematical and statistical models. It is kind of embarrassing when people who don't know science and are not trained in it, try to represent it and determine what can or cannot be.

There are all kinds of ways that Prayer could work and may be working. It would not be problematic or scary at all.

Just like it shouldn't be problematic or scary if science works without prayer.

I suppose you have documented evidence of where prayer has succeeded? You need to provide the medical diagnosis before the alleged faith healing and a medical diagnosis after it is attempted, along with contact information of the doctor , faith healer and the person who was allegedly healed. In fact, you can win a million dollars if you can provide that.

The Million Dollar Challenge

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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