If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
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20-02-2015, 04:51 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(19-02-2015 02:07 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  PS. What makes you think the doctors misdiagnosed the disease? Google "spontaneous remission". It's a phenomenon.

Do you believe god is responsible for this phenomenon?
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20-02-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(19-02-2015 02:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... The real problem ensues when you go on to make the case that something of extremely low probability is still something we can see in reality and that is must de facto be natural or real.

If you're only seeing "the hand of god" in very low probability events, it's not a ringing endorsement for this chum of yours, who is central to your life, that it only steps in and gives a helping hand so rarely - and so capriciously that whether it will or not cannot be depended on.

I mean, do you ever see a doctor, Q, yourself? If so, your faith in what the doctor can do for you by definition exceeds what believe your close celestial pal can do for you, else there'd be no point is seeing the doctor. As a matter of basic pragmatics I would NOT regard something whose assistance is rare and undependable as something valuable: any friend of mine that mercurial would never be a close friend, and most certainly would never approach anything amounting to "centrality" in my life.

Perhaps you believe a god intercedes on your behalf in ordinary events. You land a job, you meet your wife, your kids are wonderful, you can afford the car you want, everybody at the office caught a cold but you didn't, the bridge you last crossed on the freeway didn't collapse, it didn't rain on your Saturday picnic, your cable connection stayed solid during some vital media event, etc. etc.

Are you really so personally incompetent, so hapless, so luckless that you need celestial assistance navigating the stumblestones of life? And how do you account for the ones that do trip you - why wasn't there any help getting over those? The one thing you can count on about that buddy of yours is that it CAN'T be counted on.
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20-02-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(20-02-2015 08:01 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(19-02-2015 02:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... The real problem ensues when you go on to make the case that something of extremely low probability is still something we can see in reality and that is must de facto be natural or real.

If you're only seeing "the hand of god" in very low probability events, it's not a ringing endorsement for this chum of yours, who is central to your life, that it only steps in and gives a helping hand so rarely - and so capriciously that whether it will or not cannot be depended on.

I mean, do you ever see a doctor, Q, yourself? If so, your faith in what the doctor can do for you by definition exceeds what believe your close celestial pal can do for you, else there'd be no point is seeing the doctor. As a matter of basic pragmatics I would NOT regard something whose assistance is rare and undependable as something valuable: any friend of mine that mercurial would never be a close friend, and most certainly would never approach anything amounting to "centrality" in my life.

Perhaps you believe a god intercedes on your behalf in ordinary events. You land a job, you meet your wife, your kids are wonderful, you can afford the car you want, everybody at the office caught a cold but you didn't, the bridge you last crossed on the freeway didn't collapse, it didn't rain on your Saturday picnic, your cable connection stayed solid during some vital media event, etc. etc.

Are you really so personally incompetent, so hapless, so luckless that you need celestial assistance navigating the stumblestones of life? And how do you account for the ones that do trip you - why wasn't there any help getting over those? The one thing you can count on about that buddy of yours is that it CAN'T be counted on.

Don't be so ignorant. Doctors are part of God's plan, and you have to play your part by consulting them. If you don't, you are defying God. And we know how that ends.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-02-2015, 07:26 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(20-02-2015 08:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-02-2015 08:01 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  If you're only seeing "the hand of god" in very low probability events, it's not a ringing endorsement for this chum of yours, who is central to your life, that it only steps in and gives a helping hand so rarely - and so capriciously that whether it will or not cannot be depended on.

I mean, do you ever see a doctor, Q, yourself? If so, your faith in what the doctor can do for you by definition exceeds what believe your close celestial pal can do for you, else there'd be no point is seeing the doctor. As a matter of basic pragmatics I would NOT regard something whose assistance is rare and undependable as something valuable: any friend of mine that mercurial would never be a close friend, and most certainly would never approach anything amounting to "centrality" in my life.

Perhaps you believe a god intercedes on your behalf in ordinary events. You land a job, you meet your wife, your kids are wonderful, you can afford the car you want, everybody at the office caught a cold but you didn't, the bridge you last crossed on the freeway didn't collapse, it didn't rain on your Saturday picnic, your cable connection stayed solid during some vital media event, etc. etc.

Are you really so personally incompetent, so hapless, so luckless that you need celestial assistance navigating the stumblestones of life? And how do you account for the ones that do trip you - why wasn't there any help getting over those? The one thing you can count on about that buddy of yours is that it CAN'T be counted on.

Don't be so ignorant. Doctors are part of God's plan, and you have to play your part by consulting them. If you don't, you are defying God. And we know how that ends.


Plus, coincidentally, god only works through people who have had years of medical training and experience.
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23-02-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
[snipped]
Quote:Are you really so personally incompetent, so hapless, so luckless that you need celestial assistance navigating the stumblestones of life? And how do you account for the ones that do trip you - why wasn't there any help getting over those? The one thing you can count on about that buddy of yours is that it CAN'T be counted on.

We are need some assistance with the stumblestones, including for some at some times in some cases:

*doctors
*attorneys
*counselors
*friends
*Jesus Christ

You just don't like my list.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-02-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
Ok, I think it's been long enough for me to share this story.

I had a post op cardiac patient in a-fib (irregular heart rhythm). He had a syncopal episode (passed out) on the step down unit, so they sent him to my unit to be more closely observed. His a-fib was a controlled rate between 90-110, his blood pressure was normal, ejection fraction about 50%, so he was fine. We tried to cardiovert him twice (shock into a normal sinus rhythm) and had him on an amiodarone drip, we had basically decided oh well he'll go home with PO (by mouth) amiodarone and warfarin for anticoagulation.

Surgery leaves you constipated. It had been six days since my patient had taken a shit. He decided he needed to take a dump - I got him a bedside commode so I could leave him on the monitor since he had passed out while on the step down unit. I didn't want to miss anything. When you bare down, you can stimulate the vagus nerve, effectively lowering your heart rate. It's called a vagal maneuver. So here's my patient, straining, basically giving birth to a ten pound shit (I shoulda looked for Jesus's face in it), and he converts to a normal sinus rhythm.

Right before he converted, he had said "Lord have mercy." He told me this is what his mother with Alzheimer's said two minutes before she died. He was convinced that god dunnit and that it was proof The Lord is alive and well and answers prayers. He even tried to proselytize to me and asked me if I believed in god, I lied and said yes - he was on a roll and I didn't want to rain on his poop parade.

I had fun telling everyone on the unit that my patient's shit was a religious experience.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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23-02-2015, 02:32 PM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(23-02-2015 01:55 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Ok, I think it's been long enough for me to share this story.

I had a post op cardiac patient in a-fib (irregular heart rhythm). He had a syncopal episode (passed out) on the step down unit, so they sent him to my unit to be more closely observed. His a-fib was a controlled rate between 90-110, his blood pressure was normal, ejection fraction about 50%, so he was fine. We tried to cardiovert him twice (shock into a normal sinus rhythm) and had him on an amiodarone drip, we had basically decided oh well he'll go home with PO (by mouth) amiodarone and warfarin for anticoagulation.

Surgery leaves you constipated. It had been six days since my patient had taken a shit. He decided he needed to take a dump - I got him a bedside commode so I could leave him on the monitor since he had passed out while on the step down unit. I didn't want to miss anything. When you bare down, you can stimulate the vagus nerve, effectively lowering your heart rate. It's called a vagal maneuver. So here's my patient, straining, basically giving birth to a ten pound shit (I shoulda looked for Jesus's face in it), and he converts to a normal sinus rhythm.

Right before he converted, he had said "Lord have mercy." He told me this is what his mother with Alzheimer's said two minutes before she died. He was convinced that god dunnit and that it was proof The Lord is alive and well and answers prayers. He even tried to proselytize to me and asked me if I believed in god, I lied and said yes - he was on a roll and I didn't want to rain on his poop parade.

I had fun telling everyone on the unit that my patient's shit was a religious experience.

LOL! Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-02-2015, 12:58 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
(23-02-2015 01:40 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... We all need assistance with the stumblestones ... [from] ...

*doctors
*attorneys
*counselors
*friends
*Jesus Christ

... You just don't like my list ...

Here's Max Kimball's list:

*Dr. Miles
*International Amalgamated (employer)
*Colleen (wife)
*Jackson (best friend since grade school)
*Elvis Presley

Max's list matches yours molecule for molecule. Same list. But you and I both consider Max a bit "off" to have the list he has, whereas only one of us considers both lists "off" due to the fact that they're the same list.

They're not the same, I think you'll say. Elvis doesn't answer prayers.

To which I ask, again, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

There's no way to tell.

There's ASSUREDLY no way to tell if all you or anyone else ever prays for is an event indistinguishable from nature. Like recovery from an illness.

That's an aspect of prayer I find dismally pathetic: that most prayers never ask for USEFUL miracles. You know, an overnight recalibration of human DNA that makes cancer impossible in the entire human species and all our descendants. Or a rearrangement of cerebral cortex function that makes self-delusion impossible. Or an overnight growth of voluntarily controlled ear flaps that work like eyelids to shut distracting noise off. Or an incapacity of human conscience to become corrupt. Or an incapacity of human dexterity to make physical blunders. USEFUL things.

No. Every damn prayer is for some damn trivial, selfish, ORDINARY event that benefits an infinitesimal fragment of humanity, and never a miracle of such stupendous dimension it would make even the likes of me snap eyes open and say "Wow!"

Mr. Christ is on your list because you think he's the agent for answering prayer, even as you dismiss Max thinking the identical thing about Elvis, yet you and everyone like you who thinks you've seen prayers answered has NEVER capitalized on that observation and bothered to pray for something USEFUL. Shame on you.
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24-02-2015, 05:58 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
If prayers worked, you wouldn't need Obamacare, Oh, isn't that what the GOP is trying to say.

First, GOD created MAN, then Woman then Temptation then Confusion.Sadcryface
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24-02-2015, 06:04 AM
RE: If Prayer Worked, Science Wouldn't
It's really obvious that prayer doesn't work......

I keep praying - and this damned thread is still here.....


heh

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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