"If atheism were true...."
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16-05-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
When in doubt - whip out your dictionary and read from it.

(15-05-2014 08:50 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Throughout the debate, Craig kept saying "if atheism were true....".


What does that even mean? I thought to myself, why is Sam letting him get away with that? Then I remembered the time restrictions. He barely had time to address the other points.

One more thing he didn't have enough time to address was the assumption that if there is a god, then therefore morals necessarily come from that god.

What are your thoughts?

What I heard him repeat was something along the lines that atheism does not have a morality - which is true!

Harris cannot argue against that. Craig's conflict in his argument is by claiming that he is not arguing about theism. or the existence of God, but rather he is arguing the ontological foundation of morality.

It's easier for me to accept Harris' reasoning, but I think he would benefit from the standardization of knowledge that I am championing, because his use of "atheism," is tortured, he would have been better served by referring to humanism when explaining that it is possible to experience rapture and Ecstasy.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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16-05-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 10:27 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 10:20 AM)TheBear Wrote:  Claiming that non-belief is a belief is like claiming that non-stamp collecting is a hobby.

Category error: beliefs are abstract entities and hobbies are concrete entities. And it relies back to the ontology of beliefs - your probably going to contradict your arguments there if you pursue this.

quote='Wikipedia, 2014.05.16'
A category mistake, or category error, is a semantic or ontological error in which things belonging to a particular category are presented as if they belong to a different category,[1] or, alternatively, a property is ascribed to a thing that could not possibly have that property. Thomas Szasz argued that minds are not the sort of things that can be said to be diseased or ill because they belong to the wrong category and that "illness" is a term that can only be ascribed to things like the body; saying that the mind is ill is a misuse of words. Another example is the metaphor "time crawled", which if taken literally is not just false but a category mistake. To show that a category mistake has been committed one must typically show that once the phenomenon in question is properly understood, it becomes clear that the claim being made about it could not possibly be true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_mistake /quote

How about...
Quote:Atheism is a religion, like bald is a hair color

Double category error!

How about...
Atheism is a religion, just like theism is a religion.
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16-05-2014, 06:35 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2014 06:47 PM by Charis.)
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 06:30 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  How about...
Atheism is a religion, just like theism is a religion.

Please give us your definition of:

1. What a religion is.

2. What Atheism is.

Edit: Wait... are you summarizing TW, or are you saying that you think Atheism is a religion yourself? Sorry for the confusion. I have TW on ignore, so yeah.

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16-05-2014, 06:40 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2014 06:46 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 06:30 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  How about...
Atheism is a religion, just like theism is a religion.

Bravo Bowing

But I put that together, myself, a few years back - I forgot about it because I have been away from the argument style for a while and working on the larger system. My first reasoning on the argument style lead me to reason that the second category error is "bald is a hair style." And then there may have been another argument I came up with before I realized the correct argument is what you quoted - were you there?

(16-05-2014 06:35 PM)Charis Wrote:  Edit: Wait... are you summarizing TW, or are you saying that you think Atheism is a religion yourself? Sorry for the confusion.

WOW Facepalm You're confident that we agree what theism is - right???

(16-05-2014 06:35 PM)Charis Wrote:  Please give us your definition of:

1. What a religion is.

2. What Atheism is.

What's your definitions???

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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16-05-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 06:40 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Bravo Bowing

But I put that together, myself, a few years back - I forgot about it because I have been away from the argument style for a while and working on the larger system. My first reasoning on the argument style lead me to reason that the second category error is "bald is a hair style." And then there may have been another argument i came up with before i realized the correct argument is what you quoted.

Yeah

And somone who isnt a homosexual is a Ahomosexual
Someone who isnt a conservative is Aconservative

Atheism is a combination of greek words "without" and "god" for a reason, it signifies the lack of theism which therefor isnt able to be categorised as theism

just as someone who is illiterate is derived from the latin word "illiteratus" and cannot be categorised as a form of literacy.

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16-05-2014, 06:48 PM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 06:40 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 06:30 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  How about...
Atheism is a religion, just like theism is a religion.

Bravo Bowing

But I put that together, myself, a few years back - I forgot about it because I have been away from the argument style for a while and working on the larger system. My first reasoning on the argument style lead me to reason that the second category error is "bald is a hair style." And then there may have been another argument I came up with before I realized the correct argument is what you quoted - were you there?

(16-05-2014 06:35 PM)Charis Wrote:  Edit: Wait... are you summarizing TW, or are you saying that you think Atheism is a religion yourself? Sorry for the confusion.

WOW Facepalm You're confident that we agree what theism is - right???

(16-05-2014 06:35 PM)Charis Wrote:  Please give us your definition of:

1. What a religion is.

2. What Atheism is.

What's your definitions???

No, the category error here is yours. You ascribe attributes of belief to a lack of belief. That is a major failure.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-05-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 06:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, the category error here is yours. You ascribe attributes of belief to a lack of belief. That is a major failure.

There is no god - belief in god is an error.

You acknowledge that your concept of non-belief is compromised when you accept the classification of atheism as describing your knowledge of the difference.

You are ascribing something different than knowledge to what belief is - you believe atheism is true and admirable, and the people who share that value seem more acceptable, don't you???

Humanism is the better designation for what you want atheism to mean.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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16-05-2014, 07:43 PM
"If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 07:34 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 06:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, the category error here is yours. You ascribe attributes of belief to a lack of belief. That is a major failure.

There is no god - belief in god is an error.

You acknowledge that your concept of non-belief is compromised when you accept the classification of atheism as describing your knowledge of the difference.

You are ascribing something different than knowledge to what belief is - you believe atheism is true and admirable, and the people who share that value seem more acceptable, don't you???

Humanism is the better designation for what you want atheism to mean.

...But that's not even accurate, because Humanism only assigns more weight to human affairs than the supernatural.

Atheism and agnosticism assign nothing to the supernatural, as it cannot be shown to exist at all.

Quote:Definition of humanism in English:
humanism
Syllabification: hu·man·ism
Pronunciation: /ˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnizəm /
NOUN

1An outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.

There's even a specific branch of humanism that is a-theistic:

Quote:Main Entry: secular humanism
Function: noun
Date: 1933
: humanism 3; especially : humanistic philosophy viewed as a nontheistic religion antagonistic to traditional religion

But again, you're pointing toward replacing a word describing the rejection of irrational beliefs with a new system of belief that just happens to be atheistic.

You may as well derail threads into a discussion about how all atheists should identify as Buddhists.












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16-05-2014, 08:04 PM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 07:43 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  ...But that's not even accurate, because Humanism only assigns more weight to human affairs than the supernatural.
That's not good enough - you want something demonstrative, and I suggest that you make that your political doctrine that opposes theism foundations for public law.

Keep in mind I find the humanism definition you are using to be inaccurate, but not wrong. I think that humanism accepts theism as an error of human evolution, but a necessary organizational tool for what was a very unexplained experience of life that we cannot experience, because our knowledge system is so much more complete and accurate.

(16-05-2014 07:43 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Atheism and agnosticism assign nothing to the supernatural, as it cannot be shown to exist at all.
Why do you want to remind yourself that theism exists, unless it is in an effort to extinguish it???
(16-05-2014 07:43 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  But again, you're pointing toward replacing a word describing the rejection of irrational beliefs with a new system of belief that just happens to be atheistic.

You may as well derail threads into a discussion about how all atheists should identify as Buddhists.

You're confusing my intentions, and the use of "atheistic," is just tortured - would you refer to religions as being "theistic"???

How come you guys reason the generation of "humanism," as something other than a response to theism???

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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16-05-2014, 08:37 PM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 04:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 08:50 PM)TheBear Wrote:  A few years ago Sam Harris had a public debate with William Craig. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwcZNWd3iSo
The topic was morals and ethics. Their time limits were strictly enforced.

Throughout the debate, Craig kept saying "if atheism were true....".


What does that even mean? I thought to myself, why is Sam letting him get away with that? Then I remembered the time restrictions. He barely had time to address the other points.

One more thing he didn't have enough time to address was the assumption that if there is a god, then therefore morals necessarily come from that god.

What are your thoughts?

I find it interesting that no non-theist in debate takes issue with the term "atheism" being used the way Craig uses it.

When Craig says things like "on atheism", or " if atheism is true", he is simply saying " in a world without God"....

That is why no one debating him has issue with the way he uses the term.

Atheism is not a claim, asswipe. He (and you, his little asslicker) is casting it atheism as it it was.

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