"If atheism were true...."
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16-05-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 08:53 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 08:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep asserting that non-belief is a belief. Don't you realize how illogical that is?

This is the argument that I am looking for - how long are you going to make this argument until you recognize that the misunderstanding has to do with the system of definitions that are being used?

That is what the problem is, otherwise you would not even bother to try to explain it to the theists.

No, that is only your problem. No one here is buying your definition.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-05-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 08:54 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  No, it's because WLC is an intellectually dishonest skid-mark who warps language to fool the listener.

And let's face it - all the fucking Christians, Republicans, and investment bankers, are all fucking do this.

It is time we put a stop to it! The people must rise up!

This is madness that we innocent, and honest, intellectual atheists have to put up with everyday. I'm claiming a mental anguish disability - I'm going to get paid for this shit, cracka!!! Feel me???

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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16-05-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 04:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  When Craig says things like "on atheism", or " if atheism is true", he is simply saying " in a world without God"....
You may be right, but if that's really what he means then that's what he should actually say.

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16-05-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 09:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 04:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  When Craig says things like "on atheism", or " if atheism is true", he is simply saying " in a world without God"....
You may be right, but if that's really what he means then that's what he should actually say.

Why? Because you think so?

The people he debates understand him perfectly. The people in the audience to my recollection never stand up and tell him he is wrong for using the term in the sense he does.
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16-05-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 08:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 06:35 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Dr. Craig debates with men and women who are non-theists.

In fact, most of the people I have seen him debate refer to themselves as non-theists.

A non-theist does not believe God exists.

The confusion is only found here in forums like this. In the academy, people who are not theists do have arguments and defenses for their views. They recognize that to claim their position is one that does not need defending is simply wishful thinking.

Only on these forums will people try to claim that their beliefs are beyond reproach and need no defense because they just so happen to label themselves as atheists.

You keep asserting that non-belief is a belief. Don't you realize how illogical that is?

And where is this 'academy' of which you speak?

You have beliefs just like everybody else. You have a worldview just like everybody else. Just because you do not believe in God does not mean you do not have a worldview or beliefs or a particular paradigm that explains your perceptions of reality.
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16-05-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 09:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Why? Because you think so?
Because language is for communication and if someone is communicating something other than their intended meaning when they could communicate more accurately, then they should do so, don't you think?

(16-05-2014 09:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The people he debates understand him perfectly. The people in the audience to my recollection never stand up and tell him he is wrong for using the term in the sense he does.
Understanding his meaning is really the ONLY explanation you can think of for people not correcting him?

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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16-05-2014, 09:46 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2014 09:56 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 08:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep asserting that non-belief is a belief.

This has to do with the ontology of belief/knowledge - remember that discussion? Did we reach any conclusions that we rely upon for further discussions?

If atheists and theists have absolute disagreements at these junctures of reasoning - you should recognize why the rest of our social organization and politics is messed up.

This error didn't mean as much as it does now, when the margin of human error is being narrowed because of the improvements in technology - forty, fifty years ago, common Christians didn't have to worry about these arguments. Now they do, and you think you are going to insist that all the words in the dictionary are scientifically determined??? Science is your standard - is it not?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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16-05-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 08:54 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 04:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I find it interesting that no non-theist in debate takes issue with the term "atheism" being used the way Craig uses it.

When Craig says things like "on atheism", or " if atheism is true", he is simply saying " in a world without God"....

That is why no one debating him has issue with the way he uses the term.

No, it's because WLC is an intellectually dishonest skid-mark who warps language to fool the listener.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig

http://www.uncrediblehallq.net/2011/06/0...followers/

Quote:You don’t have to have any brains to tell someone, “Have you seen the Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology? Before you say there are no intelligent theists and no good reasons to believe in God, maybe you’d better look at that book first. Otherwise, you’re not really informed.” You don’t need to have read these books yourself if you’re so pressed for time. All you have to do is know a few titles. ... Shame the unbeliever for his ignorance of the literature.

"You don't have to read books, just pretend you have and lie about it."

Quote:[L]earn to drop the names of some Christian scholars. ... Name-dropping is distasteful when someone is trying to show off, but in a case like this, you’re simply offering counter-examples to the sweeping claim that all Christians are ignoramuses, a view that is itself rooted in ignorance."

- WLC

http://barefootbum.blogspot.com/2010/07/...l.html?m=1

I am sure he would love to hear you say these things. I myself smile when I read them and think of what Christopher Hitchens once said about people resorting to ad hominems.

He loved it when people resorted to ad hominem attacks because this let him know that they had nothing to say against his arguments.

Craig no doubt feels the same way, just as I do.
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16-05-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 09:43 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 08:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep asserting that non-belief is a belief. Don't you realize how illogical that is?

And where is this 'academy' of which you speak?

You have beliefs just like everybody else. You have a worldview just like everybody else. Just because you do not believe in God does not mean you do not have a worldview or beliefs or a particular paradigm that explains your perceptions of reality.

Of course I have a worldview, but that's not the point. Non-belief is not a belief.

Your non-answers and deflections are tedious.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-05-2014, 09:49 AM
RE: "If atheism were true...."
(16-05-2014 09:43 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You have beliefs just like everybody else. You have a worldview just like everybody else. Just because you do not believe in God does not mean you do not have a worldview or beliefs or a particular paradigm that explains your perceptions of reality.

And the misunderstanding here, is that the system of beliefs that you are referring to is correctly categorized under "humanism," and not atheism.

When you get to the humanist argument that society needs non-theist doctrine (politics) - that is atheism.

It would be absolutely absurd for an atheist to proclaim that he is all in favor of theist doctrine guiding society - he should be seeking scientific doctrine for guiding society.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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