If evolution is true...
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05-01-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: If evolution is true...
If humans were made from dirt, why is there still dirt?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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05-01-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: If evolution is true...
(05-01-2013 09:40 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  If humans were made from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I think it's officially "dust", but that's an awesome question that I never thought to ask - a perfect rebuttal to the idiot theist question "If we evolved from chimps then why are there still chimps."

I love it!

And I'm a gonna use it, too.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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05-01-2013, 06:12 PM
RE: If evolution is true...
(05-01-2013 02:21 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(05-01-2013 09:40 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  If humans were made from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I think it's officially "dust", but that's an awesome question that I never thought to ask - a perfect rebuttal to the idiot theist question "If we evolved from chimps then why are there still chimps."

I love it!

And I'm a gonna use it, too.
Hahah I agree! Awesome.

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08-01-2013, 12:01 AM
RE: If evolution is true...
(02-01-2013 02:04 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  First of all, evolution could be true AND there could be a god. Evolution might just be god's tool for creation. It's like he's playing a really complex game of Spore. Just because one of those things might be true (at least presuppositionally) doesn't mean the other thing must be false.
Yeah, but what kind of God would that leave us with? A pantheist or deists god, not a theistic one. Not an anthropomorphic god that created the whole of the universe for the benefit of one species of primate, whom he is really concerned about what they do while naked with each other...

As usual, one rent in the fabric threatens to tear the entire tapestry down.

Evolution is just not compatible with a literal interpretation of Genesis, and this is Kyrptonite for many believers. In this sense, evolution is not compatible with Christianity. Without Genesis, you have no Adam and Eve, and no original sin. Without original sin, you have no fall, and no need for redemption.

You ultimately have no need for Jesus. Weather he existed or not, regardless of what he may or may not have said, he simply is not needed anymore.

Occam's razor strikes again.

Evolution undermines the core of their religion, that humans are flawed and sinful creatures, and they need the forgiveness provided by their 'faith' in order to fix their 'affliction'. If 'sin' is the affliction, and belief in Jesus the cure, then science (through evolution) is the prevention. It gives us an evidence based viewpoint for seeing the beauty of life without the trappings of God, and thus without all of the baggage that concept incurs.

This is why evolution is such a hard concept for many devout believes to accept. Because if you follow the trail of logic to its conclusion, evolutionary theory is not compatible with the faith of many believers.

Fortunately for them, so they believe, their faith is 100% truth and doesn't have to accommodate a mere 'theory' such as evolution. Thus the cycle continues..

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08-01-2013, 12:13 AM
RE: If evolution is true...
Yes, without genesis there is no need for Jesus. I get it. You get it. We've both been preaching it for years.

And yet Pope Benny released this official statement in 2004:

According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5–4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.

Now, I'm no Catholic, but I'm pretty sure those guys are super big on the whole original sin idea - they list it as "an essential truth of the faith" (which I find to be at least ironic and probably oxymoronic but it's clearly meaningful to them).

So for them to officially endorse original sin and evolution, I guess they're able to do the mental gymnastics necessary to reconcile them both as tools of their creator.

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08-01-2013, 12:20 AM
RE: If evolution is true...
(08-01-2013 12:13 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  So for them to officially endorse original sin and evolution, I guess they're able to do the mental gymnastics necessary to reconcile them both as tools of their creator.
And that is the key, mental gymnastics. But I don't think it's a stretch to accuse the Catholic church of stretching and abusing logic for their own gain...

Also I dig your signature quote. Now that reminds me that I need to get a copy of 'Starship Troopers' for my Nook, I haven't read it in years and lost my copy a while back...

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08-01-2013, 12:41 AM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2013 12:59 AM by Adenosis.)
RE: If evolution is true...
(08-01-2013 12:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, but what kind of God would that leave us with? A pantheist or deists god, not a theistic one. Not an anthropomorphic god that created the whole of the universe for the benefit of one species of primate, whom he is really concerned about what they do while naked with each other...
While I agree with all your points, I feel the need to throw my thoughts on this part out there...

Certainly this god is not compatible with the god most Christians have come to understand. The main reason for such attachment to this idea of god is because many grew up under the assumption that their god was the one true god.

If there truly is a god, I imagine him to be much less limited than to just watch over one planet with life, how boring would that be? Like watching the same show every day all day forever. Why can't god have a multitude of planets to watch over in the Universe? Incredibly different organisms in various planetary environments.

That Christians aren't willing to accept what they assumed to be true is wrong, just shows how childish the bunch of them are. If you can't cope with the possibility of infinite nothingness after this life, then imagine a god that isn't as primitive as the people that wrote the Bible, and that doesn't hinge on the falsehood of scientifically accepted theories.

I imagine Christians have some of the most fear filled deaths. Near death they might start questioning their beliefs, then, depending on how honestly they question them, realizing they are complete nonsense. Then lastly coming to the realization that the only thing that awaits them is a vast eternity of nothingness, which can only stress someone out and hasten their death.

I'm just glad I am aware of the possibility of eternal nothingness. It shouldn't be an issue, it certainly won't be once were dead.

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08-01-2013, 12:52 AM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2013 03:17 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: If evolution is true...
(08-01-2013 12:41 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(08-01-2013 12:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, but what kind of God would that leave us with? A pantheist or deists god, not a theistic one. Not an anthropomorphic god that created the whole of the universe for the benefit of one species of primate, whom he is really concerned about what they do while naked with each other...
While I agree with all your points, I feel the need to throw my thoughts on this part out there...

Certainly this god is not compatible with the god most Christians have come to understand. The main reason for such attachment to this idea of god is because many grew up under the assumption that their god was the one true god.

If there truly is a god, I imagine him to be much less limited than to just watch over one planet with life, how boring would that be? Like watching the same show every day all day forever. Why can't god have a multitude of planets to watch over in the Universe? Incredibly different organisms in various planetary environments.

That Christians aren't willing to accept what they assumed to be true is wrong, just shows how childish the bunch of them are. If you can't cope with the possibility of infinite nothingness after this life, then imagine a god that isn't as primitive as the people that wrote the Bible, and that doesn't hinge on the falsehood of scientifically accepted theories.

I imagine Christians have some of the most fear filled deaths. Near death they might start questioning their beliefs, then, depending on how honestly they question them, realizing they are complete nonsense. Then last but least coming to the realization that the only thing that awaits them is a vast eternity of nothingness, which can only stress someone out and hasten their death.

I'm just glad I am aware of the possibility of eternal nothingness. It shouldn't be an issue, it certainly won't be once were dead.

True. A creator/s would necessarily have to be both larger in scope and be far more detached than anything that people build structured beliefs (i.e. religions) out of.

The God of Abraham created the entire universe just so he could have a relationship with one species of primate on one planet, that all of creation was made for them; and we're the arrogant ones?

:Edited for Grammar:

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08-01-2013, 03:50 AM
RE: If evolution is true...
(08-01-2013 12:41 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I imagine Christians have some of the most fear filled deaths. Near death they might start questioning their beliefs, then, depending on how honestly they question them, realizing they are complete nonsense. Then lastly coming to the realization that the only thing that awaits them is a vast eternity of nothingness, which can only stress someone out and hasten their death.

I'm just glad I am aware of the possibility of eternal nothingness. It shouldn't be an issue, it certainly won't be once were dead.


The following is personal and 100% subjective.

My grandfather on my step-father's side of the family, was a devout Roman Catholic. He had served in the military from the Korean War to Desert Storm, and was an active member of the Knight of Columbus and other charities. When he was diagnosed with cancer, he took it in stride. However it was very advanced and his condition deteriorated very quickly. Just when it looked like it might be going into remission and he might recover, it hit back twice as hard and we lost him in a few weeks. During the last week, my mother was at his bedside 24/7 (she is a trained nurse). She told me that whenever he was lucid, it was clear that he wasn't afraid to die. He didn't want to, but he was content to go if it was really his time. He died very calmly and not afraid in the least.

My grandmother on my mother's side did not pass so easily. She was not a devout believer, but believed just enough to be absolutely terrified during her last days. This happened very long ago, before I was a teenager, and long before my father's faith pushed me into studying theology. I wish I had been there, I wish I had the knowledge and insight I have now, so that I could have shared that information with her and eased her suffering during her last days with us. But I can't, hindsight is 20-20, and wishing for another outcome doesn't change the past. I do rest easy knowing that she no longer suffers, that the hell of her imagination was just that; her imagination.


Delusions can be very comforting, and doubt can be very painful. However neither can change what is, only our perception of what we'd like there to be.

I'm glad that I am now more knowledgeable about how the world is, and that I will be able to share my insight if need be.

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08-01-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: If evolution is true...
(08-01-2013 03:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The following is personal and 100% subjective.

My grandfather on my step-father's side of the family, was a devout Roman Catholic... He died very calmly and not afraid in the least.

My grandmother on my mother's side did not pass so easily. She was not a devout believer, but believed just enough to be absolutely terrified during her last days. I do rest easy knowing that she no longer suffers, that the hell of her imagination was just that; her imagination.


Delusions can be very comforting, and doubt can be very painful. However neither can change what is, only our perception of what we'd like there to be.

I'm glad that I am now more knowledgeable about how the world is, and that I will be able to share my insight if need be.
Interesting personal account. Even for the (probably) majority of people that don't question their beliefs near death, they may still have fear of going to hell, which it seemed your Grandma had.

No one near me has died before, but I imagine when they do die I will miss them, but I also won't feel as strongly as most people would. They are no longer in pain, and they don't have to struggle to survive any more. When I die I'd rather people threw a party than a funeral. Funerals are too depressing for people.

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