If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
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13-10-2013, 12:01 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(12-10-2013 06:22 PM)Bruno Wrote:  I think any being that requires worship must have less than desirable personality traits.

Including, but not limited to being a narcissist, full of himself, low self-esteem.

The dictator of North Korea comes to mind.
Everybody worships something. Worship goes on a scale from giving adulation to some greater person or thing, or else on the other end of the scale. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage.

People who do not worship God, worship something else.
The word worship comes from "worth ship"
Origin:
before 900; (noun) Middle English wors ( c ) hipe, worthssipe, Old English worthscipe, variant of weorthscipe; see worth, -ship; (v.) Middle English, derivative of the noun

So it is that thing or things to which we ascribe the greatest worth.

Unfortunately people become like those things which they value and place worth upon. So someone who places worth in tennis will surround their home with pictures and trophies about tennis, they will play it on the weekend and they will watch it on TV.
Atheists who place worth on evolution and cosmology as a way of explaining their existence place great worth upon their heroes like Darwin and Dawkins. They spend a lot of time reading books on the subject and they watch TV and movies about it, chat on forums and tall to their friends about the subject, making great sport out of creationists. They therefore become like these individuals, and some become brutish like their ape ancestors.

Christians however place great worth on God. The pray to him, meditate on his ways, read and hear his words, partake in his divine nature through the sacraments, and grow in grace and knowledge to become more and more like him and his son Jesus Christ who we emulate. As a result we become children of God, immortal and eternal, holy and entirely good, without any weakness, kind and generous, filled with love.

That is why we worship God. God does not need our worship but he knows that by worshipping him we will benefit ourselves and make up the gap so that we become like him. This is the plan of God, the purpose for which we are created.

It is not possible for us to achieve these things without worshipping God.

The other aspect is that it is our Christian duty. He has created us, redeemed us from sin and slavery, given us eternal life. For these things it is our duty to be grateful and very thankful, filled with awe and reverence at the greatness of God, ready at any moment to fall to our knees, bowed down and prostate, to worship the one holy God:" Father, Son and Holy Ghost".



Ch
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13-10-2013, 07:26 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(13-10-2013 12:01 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(12-10-2013 06:22 PM)Bruno Wrote:  I think any being that requires worship must have less than desirable personality traits.

Including, but not limited to being a narcissist, full of himself, low self-esteem.

The dictator of North Korea comes to mind.
Everybody worships something. Worship goes on a scale from giving adulation to some greater person or thing, or else on the other end of the scale. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage.

People who do not worship God, worship something else.
The word worship comes from "worth ship"
Origin:
before 900; (noun) Middle English wors ( c ) hipe, worthssipe, Old English worthscipe, variant of weorthscipe; see worth, -ship; (v.) Middle English, derivative of the noun

So it is that thing or things to which we ascribe the greatest worth.

Unfortunately people become like those things which they value and place worth upon. So someone who places worth in tennis will surround their home with pictures and trophies about tennis, they will play it on the weekend and they will watch it on TV.
Atheists who place worth on evolution and cosmology as a way of explaining their existence place great worth upon their heroes like Darwin and Dawkins. They spend a lot of time reading books on the subject and they watch TV and movies about it, chat on forums and tall to their friends about the subject, making great sport out of creationists. They therefore become like these individuals, and some become brutish like their ape ancestors.

Christians however place great worth on God. The pray to him, meditate on his ways, read and hear his words, partake in his divine nature through the sacraments, and grow in grace and knowledge to become more and more like him and his son Jesus Christ who we emulate. As a result we become children of God, immortal and eternal, holy and entirely good, without any weakness, kind and generous, filled with love.

That is why we worship God. God does not need our worship but he knows that by worshipping him we will benefit ourselves and make up the gap so that we become like him. This is the plan of God, the purpose for which we are created.

It is not possible for us to achieve these things without worshipping God.

The other aspect is that it is our Christian duty. He has created us, redeemed us from sin and slavery, given us eternal life. For these things it is our duty to be grateful and very thankful, filled with awe and reverence at the greatness of God, ready at any moment to fall to our knees, bowed down and prostate, to worship the one holy God:" Father, Son and Holy Ghost".



Ch

When I think of worship I think of groups of people a long time ago
bowing down to a statue because they believed in some mumbo
jumbo they were taught was real. It's basically the same today
and I find the act weird and demoralizing. I can honestly say I
don't worship anything in that way. A being that's intelligent
enough to create the entire universe out of nothing isn't found
inside the Bible.
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13-10-2013, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2013 07:31 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
Love the video! X-cubed,

why is it impossible that the Catholic Church, comprised of fallible humans, is wrong?

Is it possible that if you were to admit that the CC could be wrong about one thing, than they would be wrong about more things, possibly everything? Is that too scary of a thought for you?

You see, if I claimed that god came to me when I was a devout catholic in a vision, and he told me that blind servitude - without reasonable due diligence of my own - was as morally sinful as murder because it created a mechanism for which I could be manipulated into other moral corruption (murder, theft, purgery, witch burning, etc). That claim would be no more invalid than Abraham that claimed god told him to butcher his child. Or Andrea Yates.

Surely you have the capacity for self reflection and can see your own motivations. You are very emotionally attached to this idea of god. Why? Are you afraid that if you woke up tomorrow with irrefutable proof that there was no god, you would be left knowing that every discrimination against women, homosexuals an everyone else you seem unworthy according to the CC, you guilty of propagating this discrimination for naught?

Correct me if I'm wrong but here is an analogy of how that might affect you. Imagine you are a soldier in the Army. You are told by your superiors that you must kill everyone in this village because they *know* they are about to attack the US again and kill 3,000 people. So you do not question your orders and proceed to execute every man, woman, and child in that village. You kill 500 living breathing people. Then, later, you find that your superiors were not only wrong, but that they flat out lied to you. While you could stomach the idea of killing those people to save the lives of others, now the rationale is gone. You killed them for nothing. And you are disgusted with yourself for your blind, unquestioning, and unwavering obedience.

This is an extreme example to drive home a point. What is it about you that let's you deny any fallibility or worse - justify any wrong that the Catholic Church has already admitted to? (Limbo, etc)

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-10-2013, 09:01 PM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(13-10-2013 12:01 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(12-10-2013 06:22 PM)Bruno Wrote:  I think any being that requires worship must have less than desirable personality traits.

Including, but not limited to being a narcissist, full of himself, low self-esteem.

The dictator of North Korea comes to mind.
Everybody worships something. Worship goes on a scale from giving adulation to some greater person or thing, or else on the other end of the scale. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage.

People who do not worship God, worship something else.
The word worship comes from "worth ship"
Origin:
before 900; (noun) Middle English wors ( c ) hipe, worthssipe, Old English worthscipe, variant of weorthscipe; see worth, -ship; (v.) Middle English, derivative of the noun

So it is that thing or things to which we ascribe the greatest worth.

Unfortunately people become like those things which they value and place worth upon. So someone who places worth in tennis will surround their home with pictures and trophies about tennis, they will play it on the weekend and they will watch it on TV.
Atheists who place worth on evolution and cosmology as a way of explaining their existence place great worth upon their heroes like Darwin and Dawkins. They spend a lot of time reading books on the subject and they watch TV and movies about it, chat on forums and tall to their friends about the subject, making great sport out of creationists. They therefore become like these individuals, and some become brutish like their ape ancestors.

Christians however place great worth on God. The pray to him, meditate on his ways, read and hear his words, partake in his divine nature through the sacraments, and grow in grace and knowledge to become more and more like him and his son Jesus Christ who we emulate. As a result we become children of God, immortal and eternal, holy and entirely good, without any weakness, kind and generous, filled with love.

That is why we worship God. God does not need our worship but he knows that by worshipping him we will benefit ourselves and make up the gap so that we become like him. This is the plan of God, the purpose for which we are created.

It is not possible for us to achieve these things without worshipping God.

The other aspect is that it is our Christian duty. He has created us, redeemed us from sin and slavery, given us eternal life. For these things it is our duty to be grateful and very thankful, filled with awe and reverence at the greatness of God, ready at any moment to fall to our knees, bowed down and prostate, to worship the one holy God:" Father, Son and Holy Ghost".



Ch

Excubitor, if you continue to start your posts with sweeping generalizations like this the points you make afterward lose a lot of their credibility. Not all people feel the need to worship something. I myself worship nothing. And before you answer this, keep in mind that a semantic argument against this is an even weaker argument.


If you don't want a sarcastic answer, don't ask stupid questions. Drinking Beverage
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14-10-2013, 02:09 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(13-10-2013 09:01 PM)ivaneus Wrote:  
(13-10-2013 12:01 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Everybody worships something. Worship goes on a scale from giving adulation to some greater person or thing, or else on the other end of the scale. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage.

People who do not worship God, worship something else.
The word worship comes from "worth ship"
Origin:
before 900; (noun) Middle English wors ( c ) hipe, worthssipe, Old English worthscipe, variant of weorthscipe; see worth, -ship; (v.) Middle English, derivative of the noun

So it is that thing or things to which we ascribe the greatest worth.

Unfortunately people become like those things which they value and place worth upon. So someone who places worth in tennis will surround their home with pictures and trophies about tennis, they will play it on the weekend and they will watch it on TV.
Atheists who place worth on evolution and cosmology as a way of explaining their existence place great worth upon their heroes like Darwin and Dawkins. They spend a lot of time reading books on the subject and they watch TV and movies about it, chat on forums and tall to their friends about the subject, making great sport out of creationists. They therefore become like these individuals, and some become brutish like their ape ancestors.

Christians however place great worth on God. The pray to him, meditate on his ways, read and hear his words, partake in his divine nature through the sacraments, and grow in grace and knowledge to become more and more like him and his son Jesus Christ who we emulate. As a result we become children of God, immortal and eternal, holy and entirely good, without any weakness, kind and generous, filled with love.

That is why we worship God. God does not need our worship but he knows that by worshipping him we will benefit ourselves and make up the gap so that we become like him. This is the plan of God, the purpose for which we are created.

It is not possible for us to achieve these things without worshipping God.

The other aspect is that it is our Christian duty. He has created us, redeemed us from sin and slavery, given us eternal life. For these things it is our duty to be grateful and very thankful, filled with awe and reverence at the greatness of God, ready at any moment to fall to our knees, bowed down and prostate, to worship the one holy God:" Father, Son and Holy Ghost".



Ch

Excubitor, if you continue to start your posts with sweeping generalizations like this the points you make afterward lose a lot of their credibility. Not all people feel the need to worship something. I myself worship nothing. And before you answer this, keep in mind that a semantic argument against this is an even weaker argument.
People who say that they do not worship anything invariably worship themselves. That might be regarded as a sweeping generalisation by some, but I state it as an emphatic truth.
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14-10-2013, 03:06 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(14-10-2013 02:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(13-10-2013 09:01 PM)ivaneus Wrote:  Excubitor, if you continue to start your posts with sweeping generalizations like this the points you make afterward lose a lot of their credibility. Not all people feel the need to worship something. I myself worship nothing. And before you answer this, keep in mind that a semantic argument against this is an even weaker argument.
People who say that they do not worship anything invariably worship themselves. That might be regarded as a sweeping generalisation by some, but I state it as an emphatic truth.

Considering the merits of all your other "emphatic truths" I think we can all take this one with a grain of salt. Anyone that claims to be a geocentrist YEC in this day and age is either completely ignorant of science (which you claim you are not) a blithering idiot (juries still out) or a conman (as you are not selling anything here I don't make this claim about you).

To believe all that claptrap is to say that science doesn't work. If every field that would have to be in error over basic fundamental principles for your stated hypothesis to be correct would mean that nothing predicted by those fields should ever be able to be practically applied. Problem is Science works! From electricity to computers to quantum theory (that you use every time you go to the grocery store) to the car you drive to the phone in your pocket all proclaim Science works.

So please do keep carrying on about your insane theories and how they prove God because by your exposed ignorance more people will see the light, that all that crap in your holy book is nothing but the superstitious ramblings of desert madmen and sycophantic priests worried more for lining their own pockets than any so called search for truth. Please continue to build your castles on the loose sand that is a biblical worldview. You are the example we point to when asked "What harm does religion do?" You are driving more and more people out of the vampiric embrace of the church, so as an atheist I say thank you.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-10-2013, 03:36 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(09-09-2013 12:04 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  It doesn't matter if God is real or not. It really doesn't.

It really does because if it were true we would all be destined for eternal damnation.

Quote:God is not someone I would ever worship. He is an asshole. Kill your child to prove yourself to me. I love you, so I cause you suffering. Its for your own good.

That's just Yahweh and his zaniness; he isn't the only god. Implicit in your position is that were a "nice" god to be presented you could possibly worship him/her/it. Your atheism appears to be built on weak foundations.

Quote:So does it matter if he exists if he such a horrendous deity.

No if Yahweh is a horrendous deity it matters all the more that he doesn't exist because he can't smite us. The more brutal and cruel a deity that more it matters that they don't exist.

Quote:Forget that, "God changed" crap, because I do not care if a serial killer has changed - he is still a serial killer at his core. And if you don't think the God of the bible is a serial killer, than you haven't read it!

Yahweh is more a mass murderer than a serial killer. Serial killers usually have one victim at a time; Yahweh destroys (or orders the destruction of) entire planets, cities and ethnic groups.
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14-10-2013, 04:06 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(14-10-2013 03:06 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Anyone that claims to be a geocentrist YEC in this day and age is either completely ignorant of science (which you claim you are not) a blithering idiot (juries still out) or a conman (as you are not selling anything here I don't make this claim about you).

That's what I thought until I discovered Henry Morris. Morris was a YEC and he authored a well-regarded textbook on hydraulic engineering. He had a PhD in hydraulic engineering and held a professorial position in an engineering department. So he wasn't "ignorant of science" nor "a blithering idiot". I don't know if we can rule out conclusively that he wasn't a conman. He did publish books but I doubt that the readership was high enough to give him a substantial stream of income and he had a "day job". That of course in no way contributes to the veracity of YEC but it does challenge the stereotype.

Quote:To believe all that claptrap is to say that science doesn't work. If every field that would have to be in error over basic fundamental principles for your stated hypothesis to be correct would mean that nothing predicted by those fields should ever be able to be practically applied. Problem is Science works! From electricity to computers to quantum theory (that you use every time you go to the grocery store) to the car you drive to the phone in your pocket all proclaim Science works.

Morris' argument IIRC against the manifest success of science argument was that science and technology are separate domains and that what you are actually describing is technological success. The rebuttal to that is that technology is parasitic on science. His counterargument was examples such as the ancient Chinese discovery of explosives in the absence of chemistry. It was Morris' contention also that no technology relies on the veracity of the theory of evolution by natural selection. The rebuttal to that was usually antibiotic resistance, to which Morris would then reply that antibiotic resistance is "micro-evolution" and he is ok with that because it is not "real evolution".

The YEC account of the history and philosophy of science is fundamentally unsound but it is somewhat more elaborate than you seem to think. Morris pretty much created "Creation Science" and you should look to rebutting the strongest form of the YEC arguments rather than their weakest form. This book provides a comprehensive rebuttal of YEC and its derivatives.
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14-10-2013, 06:08 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(13-10-2013 12:01 AM)excubitor Wrote:  That is why we worship God. God does not need our worship but he knows that by worshipping him we will benefit ourselves

Wait. All this time worship has been about US?!

I think I was doing it wrong.
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14-10-2013, 06:31 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
Clap - I take serious issue with your statement that my atheism is built on a weak foundation.

I'm wrote this post out of frustration with Christians who will insist on the most irrational, insane and completely incomprehensible debating tactics. Who are closed off to even the consideration that there isn't a god. So I changed tactics. Fine. There is a god. And he is a dick. And I'd rather go to hell then spend a minute with that douchbag.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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