If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
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17-09-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
If God does exist, It certainly wouldn't be the Abrahamic God. I would be willing to follow God.

I think it's important to distinguish the caricature of God presented by most modern religions, and what reality might allow.

"I don't care, you know. Religion is stupid anyway. I mean, a virgin gets pregnant by a ghost! You would never get away with it in a divorce court, would you?" - Lemmy Kilmister
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18-09-2013, 06:12 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(17-09-2013 01:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 04:57 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  All I am getting is from that is confirmation that god is the most evil creature in all of fiction and if it exists in reality as you describe, it's the most evil thing in probably all possible universes and timelines, so despicable as to be morally below even the most monstrous of human beings.

Suppose that were true, it would still be stupid to behave in a manner that lands you in hell.

Behaviour doesn't dictate whether or not you go to the Christian hell. Only belief does... but if we're talking about how one would behave in a hypothetical universe where the monster-god of the Bible is real then none of us are moral actors, or are in control of our own beliefs, or our own thoughts. What we do isn't determined by stupid or reckless or anything of the sort. It's determined by the pleasure of the one who controls our actions, thoughts and deeds.

But to swing things around a little... do you consider it stupid that you are behaving in a way that condemns you to Muslim hell? If not, why not?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-09-2013, 07:14 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2013 07:20 AM by Free Thought.)
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(17-09-2013 01:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 04:57 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  All I am getting is from that is confirmation that god is the most evil creature in all of fiction and if it exists in reality as you describe, it's the most evil thing in probably all possible universes and timelines, so despicable as to be morally below even the most monstrous of human beings.

Suppose that were true, it would still be stupid to behave in a manner that lands you in hell.

I'd rather not sacrifice my humanity to bend and kiss the arse of a creature less deserving of my loyalty, love and worship than the resulting evil that would occur if you took all the evil from the Nazis, Stalin, Nicholas the II, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and the '71 Ford Pinto and made a living being.

Of course, I've done nothing in my life thus far worth damning me to any for of hell, unless not believing on the grounds that all the cumulative evidence for god's existence would probably not even fill the space (assuming there is any) between 4 protons. But I'm sure that fact would be handily forgotten in even less than an instant with little more justification that "because fuck you!" or "Because I can!".

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18-09-2013, 09:26 AM
Re: RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(17-09-2013 01:33 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 05:30 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Might makes right then? Obey the tyrant and what's the harm... that's how you decide what is smart or accurate? Frightening.

Its not about right or wrong. Its about being smart or stupid. Its stupid to go to hell just to make a point.

On what pretense? That's your claim.

I think its stupid to obey because the mighty one says so... If he has horrid justification.

Your concept is self serving by submitting to fear. That's stupid and declaring less intelligence to me.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-09-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(18-09-2013 06:12 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  But to swing things around a little... do you consider it stupid that you are behaving in a way that condemns you to Muslim hell? If not, why not?

No, I don't consider it stupid that I am behaving in way that condemns me to Muslim hell. The reason is because it hasn't been shown to me that with any reasonable certainty that the Muslim god exists.

Please remember that we are discussing a "what if" scenario. What if it was shown to you with reasonable certainty that the God of the bible exists, would you follow Him? OP says he would not and I am trying to convince him that such behavior in such a scenario is stupid.

If the Muslim god exists, and somehow this was shown to me with reasonable certainty, I start asking which way is Mecca and where can I get a prayer rug.

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18-09-2013, 12:37 PM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(18-09-2013 09:26 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 01:33 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Its not about right or wrong. Its about being smart or stupid. Its stupid to go to hell just to make a point.

On what pretense? That's your claim.

I think its stupid to obey because the mighty one says so... If he has horrid justification.

Your concept is self serving by submitting to fear. That's stupid and declaring less intelligence to me.

In my argument, I am making an assumption that ending up in hell is the worst possible thing that can happen to someone.....much worse than swallowing your pride.

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18-09-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
God the Father...he loves you

God the Father...threatens you with eternal punishment that is horrifying physical and mental torture...he loves you

God the Father...demands respect without deserving it or see above for punishment...he loves you

God the Father...demands praise for being so wonderful despite his threats of punishment as above...he loves you

God the Father...allows horrible disease, starvation, and suffering even though he could correct those things...he loves you

God the Father...will strike you with one of the above and force you to beg him for healing or release...he loves you

God the Father...is the is the ultimate depiction of an abusive parent...and you should follow him without question, accept that you deserve what you get, and live in fear....of the one that loves you.

Yeah...boy...where do I sign up for more of that?

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18-09-2013, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2013 01:30 PM by ClydeLee.)
Re: RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(18-09-2013 12:37 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-09-2013 09:26 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  On what pretense? That's your claim.

I think its stupid to obey because the mighty one says so... If he has horrid justification.

Your concept is self serving by submitting to fear. That's stupid and declaring less intelligence to me.

In my argument, I am making an assumption that ending up in hell is the worst possible thing that can happen to someone.....much worse than swallowing your pride.

I don't disagree with that being your premise... My claim is still the same.

Because the Biblical God doesn't deserve the praise he asks based on the actions he has taken. An ultimatum like law of follow these rules based on actions you abhor on their fundamental basis or suffer the greatest punishment... shouldn't alter, an intelligent response.

Your response is, how high should I jump master?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-09-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(18-09-2013 01:14 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(18-09-2013 12:37 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  In my argument, I am making an assumption that ending up in hell is the worst possible thing that can happen to someone.....much worse than swallowing your pride.

I don't disagree with that being your premise... My claim is still the same.

Because the Biblical God doesn't deserve the praise he asks. An ultimatum like law of follow these rules you abhor on their fundamental basis or suffer the greatest punishment... shouldn't alter, an intelligent response.

Your response is, how high should I jump master?

I take the position that whether or not the Biblical God deserves the praise he asks is irrelevant. The situation is what the situation is and the intelligent response is to make the best of the situation. Just because you think the situation is bad, doesn't preclude you from making the best of it.

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19-09-2013, 03:48 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 06:19 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(18-09-2013 01:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-09-2013 01:14 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't disagree with that being your premise... My claim is still the same.

Because the Biblical God doesn't deserve the praise he asks. An ultimatum like law of follow these rules you abhor on their fundamental basis or suffer the greatest punishment... shouldn't alter, an intelligent response.

Your response is, how high should I jump master?

I take the position that whether or not the Biblical God deserves the praise he asks is irrelevant. The situation is what the situation is and the intelligent response is to make the best of the situation. Just because you think the situation is bad, doesn't preclude you from making the best of it.

And it is here that we see the mercenary core of Pascal's Wager in another light.

Putting this in context even more, are you talking about the trinitarian God/Jebus/Holy Ghost combo, or the traditional Yahweh? Because God, if he was shown to exist, simply cannot exist as described in the Bible and by most theists. So we would actually have to hammer out what exactly this God really is.

If however it was the older concept of Yahweh, then some interesting things arise. Yahweh doesn't banish people to Hell, the concept appears to be alien to him. Also a reality in which Yahweh exists is one where El Shaddai, Baal, Asherah, and a ton of other regional gods should exist. This also means that Yahweh's power is limited to the location of Judea, the territory over which he held providence. Can't say I'm terribly afraid of that god either...

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