If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
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21-09-2013, 03:52 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(20-09-2013 07:03 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Go forth somewhere else and spread your wisdom.

Anjele, perhaps you just lurk.
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21-09-2013, 04:17 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(20-09-2013 02:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If God exists, I would think He is the ultimate decider of what is moral/immoral. I could have an opinion but that's all it would be.



For fuck's sake dude, why are you so damn quick to throw yourself under the bus or shackle yourself for the slave masters?

What is it about a 'god' that guarantees that they are the perfect arbiter of everything?

I would expect, that if a 'god' was in possession of a superior intellect, then it would be able to explain it's reasons and justifications for it's actions. It should be able to use reason to convince us of the legitimacy of it's actions and position. That's what it means to be a thinking rational being, if someone else has good evidence and reasons for their position, then you too will find their position compelling. Why do you want to give that away without thinking?

There is no logical justification behind 'might makes right', which is basically what you are arguing for. It is a god, therefor it must be right. Fuck that. If it is right, it should be able to convince us why it is right, a god is NOT right by default.

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21-09-2013, 05:58 AM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2013 06:01 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(20-09-2013 02:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 06:29 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  How evil does the Christian god have to be before that stray thought crosses your mind? How evil does he have to be for you to have that first thought of rejection and rebellion?

If God exists, I would think He is the ultimate decider of what is moral/immoral. I could have an opinion but that's all it would be.

Ahh, the ever compelling argument:




If god created us in his image, why do you suppose is his omnibenevolent morality so foreign to us? What evidence do you have that the being you call God is in fact the ultimate arbiter of morality? Couldn't it be a still greater god who is allowing this lesser god to have his fun with this little universe? What if rejection of this lesser god's morality is the ticket to the greater god's heaven? What if faith exists to test your logic, and by succumbing to faith you are failing the test?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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21-09-2013, 06:02 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(21-09-2013 05:58 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 02:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If God exists, I would think He is the ultimate decider of what is moral/immoral. I could have an opinion but that's all it would be.

Ahh, the ever compelling argument:




If god created us in his image, why do you suppose is his omnibenevolent morality so foreign to us? What evidence do you have that the being you call God is in fact the ultimate arbiter of morality? Couldn't it be a still greater god who is allowing this lesser god to have his fun with this little universe? What if rejection of this lesser god's morality is the ticket to the greater god's heaven? What if faith exists to test your logic, and by succumbing to faith you are failing the test?

Derail...

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26-09-2013, 03:05 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
The reason God should be worshiped and served is because it is good for us. We experience joy, love and peace that money and all the trappings of our earthly lives cannot provide.
It never ceases to amaze me how atheists focus on the negative attributes that they attribute to God.

If any man came and offered us the fountain of youth or a mansion or material possessions we would be wondering how much money we would be charged.
But when God comes offering eternal life with a mansion in heaven and spiritual possessions which will last for ever we don't even notice. People who reject and fail to notice these promises of great blessings must think that God is a liar.

I suggest the OP read the scriptures and highlight all the passages which portray God as merciful, kind, giving and loving. If you focus on these positive aspects of God it might help to even out some of your bias.

Jesus came and healed the sick, gave sight to the blind and made the cripples whole. Yet you conveniently ignore these wonderful and good things in your summary of how you will perceive God.
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26-09-2013, 03:21 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The reason God should be worshiped and served is because it is good for us. We experience joy, love and peace that money and all the trappings of our earthly lives cannot provide.

There mere existence of these emotions that we enjoy is not any more proof for your god, than they are proof for the existence of Thor, Zeus, Osiris, or Cthulhu.


(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  It never ceases to amaze me how atheists focus on the negative attributes that they attribute to God.

The lack of any evidence is also a HUGE part of it.


(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  If any man came and offered us the fountain of youth or a mansion or material possessions we would be wondering how much money we would be charged.
But when God comes offering eternal life with a mansion in heaven and spiritual possessions which will last for ever we don't even notice.

We do notice, but because you don't have any evidence that they are anything more than empty promises, we choose not to accept it uncritically.


(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  People who reject and fail to notice these promises of great blessings must think that God is a liar.

Your god would actually have to exist before it could be a liar. Empty promises made on behalf of gods with no compelling evidence of their existence is less than worthless.


(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I suggest the OP read the scriptures and highlight all the passages which portray God as merciful, kind, giving and loving. If you focus on these positive aspects of God it might help to even out some of your bias.

No fucker, that would just be bias in favor of ignoring all of the evil shit attributed to your god. A man could spend hours of his time every day helping at a homeless shelter, but if we find out that he is also a serial killer? Then no amount of public good-works will stop us for putting him in jail for murder. There is no reason to give your god a pass here; in fact we should expect better.


(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Jesus came and healed the sick, gave sight to the blind and made the cripples whole.

Unverifiable claims written decades after the supposed events by non-eyewitnesses and recorded down by followers with a vested interest in presenting their faith as authentic at a time and place were making shit up was a perfectly acceptable facet of religious syncretism of the time. Yeah, that seems legit...



(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Yet you conveniently ignore these wonderful and good things in your summary of how you will perceive God.

Good to see your religious blinders are equipped and operating perfectly fine.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg

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26-09-2013, 03:56 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
Of course, there is an inherent flaw with this approach. Atheists, lacking a belief in god, argue against anecdotal evidence for god; theists confound this by counter-arguments for an "actual entity." Yet they refuse to understand the historical context and political ramifications of their own sacred text. The sacred text is "real," is "true," and to deny the work, they believe, is to deny the presumed author of that work.

As one of the very few who has experienced god, verily I say unto you - there ain't no knowing no god. All the prophets in all the scriptures reveal this, so what is given is not "entity," but rather tao. A way to god. And just like Paul and his Jesus, I have my Gwynnies; unlike Paul, and his modern contemporaries, no one to my knowledge likes Gwyneth less because of my prophecy.

Why is that - other than the fact that she is adorable? Because I willingly accept being seen as a whack job. I willingly accept that my tao is not the eternal tao. The gospel doesn't shame me; but neither does it sanctify me.

Another thing that theists seem to miss.

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26-09-2013, 04:34 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2013 04:38 AM by excubitor.)
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(26-09-2013 03:21 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The reason God should be worshiped and served is because it is good for us. We experience joy, love and peace that money and all the trappings of our earthly lives cannot provide.

There mere existence of these emotions that we enjoy is not any more proof for your god, than they are proof for the existence of Thor, Zeus, Osiris, or Cthulhu.
In case you had not noticed Thor, Zeus, Osiris were gods who people believed created the universe. The existence of emotions some of which we attribute to good and others we attribute to evil are specific evidences of a moral force in the universe which can define what is good and what is evil. We can call this moral force god for the sake of convenience, but we can know for certain that the material forces of atheistic evolution do not provide any moral force. In fact atheists have no argument to explain how good thoughts of joy, love and peace exist. How is it that men can delight in the beauty of music, rainbows, sunsets and art? Atheism has no answer and the only answer is that these are all privileges of created mankind granted by a profound moral force which we may as well call God. Having established that there is a God who has given us these things it is then an additional question to discover the exact nature, motivation and name of this God/gods.
(26-09-2013 03:21 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  It never ceases to amaze me how atheists focus on the negative attributes that they attribute to God.

The lack of any evidence is also a HUGE part of it.
This is a ridiculous answer. My point bucko is that atheists trawl through the Bible picking out all the negative aspects of God and ignore all the good descriptions of God in the Bible.
(26-09-2013 03:21 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Yet you conveniently ignore these wonderful and good things in your summary of how you will perceive God.

Good to see your religious blinders are equipped and operating perfectly fine.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
"He has also said:
"The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it (also) seems pointless."
So for all his learning his final conclusion at the end of all his study and as he contemplates with empty eyes his darkening world he concludes that there is no point to it all.
Typical atheist. Good one for your banner lads. "There is no point". Give up religion we can offer you the ultimate in all knowledge "There is no point".
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26-09-2013, 04:51 AM
 
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The reason God should be worshiped and served is because it is good for us. We experience joy, love and peace that money and all the trappings of our earthly lives cannot provide.

Speak for yourself, dude. Money is a "trapping" only if you don't have it. Cool
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26-09-2013, 04:53 AM
RE: If he exists, God is not someone I want to follow
(26-09-2013 04:51 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  
(26-09-2013 03:05 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The reason God should be worshiped and served is because it is good for us. We experience joy, love and peace that money and all the trappings of our earthly lives cannot provide.

Speak for yourself, dude.

All he ever does. Dodgy

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