If hell exists than heaven cannot.
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25-04-2014, 06:06 AM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
(24-04-2014 09:20 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  That if someone you cared for was having their flesh burned from their body, you wouldn't be able to have peace in heaven.

I mentioned this to my catholic brother. He acknowledged the logic of that. Then he said "maybe god erases you from my memory."

My mouth dropped open. That sounds even more callous and even worse! That heaven is a fake acid trip because the reality is that I would still be burning while you enjoy amnesia.

You have to realize that to an apologist, the whole purpose of free will is to justify the problem of evil. Once you get to heaven, they'll say that free will no longer matters. Yes, that's Alpha's stated position on the matter.

Got that? We all are allowed to rape each other on earth so that God can know that we truly love him (because, if we couldn't rape each other, how would he know our love was genuine?). Once we get to heaven, it's all voodoo mind tricks and all the "robotic" qualities that free will fappers complain about, but at least there's no rape, amirite?
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25-04-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
Heaven - that place where we are supposed to spend eternity - where we would undoubtedly be bored silly after a few trillion years and would still have eternity left to go - it's either that or spend eternity in completely mindless bliss like brain dead drug addicts - where we would likely be on our knees continuously praising God just so he wouldn't change his mind and banish us to hell after all Worship Slaves - that place that itself IS hell.

Therefore I would argue, with or without the biblical hell, heaven cannot exist.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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25-04-2014, 09:07 AM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
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25-04-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
My understanding of the afterlife from the RCC is that the concept of family no longer exists. According to our priest, since the sacrament of matrimony is an exclusive type of love - it is only valid in our earthly life. This exclusive type of love cannot exist in heaven, so the idea is when you die you will not have any special affiliation with any other person in heaven. I tried to find corroboration for this teaching in the catechism of the CC but couldn't. It's an interpretation of what Jesus referred to about marriage in response to the the test given to him by the Sadducees when they concocted an example of a woman who married 7 guys - all of whom widowed her. (Luke 20: 27 - 40 NAB).

So whenever you hear people talking about their faith and feelings where they KNOW that their wife, husband or child came to them after death to tell them how everything is alright, I ponder how this could be possible given what I was taught above. It's why when people tell me that they have proof in God because "He told them He exists" - mostly via a feeling since God does not literally talk to anyone today - it troubles me. If you come to me and tell me that you were visited by a departed family member and then tell me you know God is real because you can feel it, it brings up more doubts than comfort - to me at least.
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25-04-2014, 10:09 AM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
(25-04-2014 09:57 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  My understanding of the afterlife from the RCC is that the concept of family no longer exists. According to our priest, since the sacrament of matrimony is an exclusive type of love - it is only valid in our earthly life. This exclusive type of love cannot exist in heaven, so the idea is when you die you will not have any special affiliation with any other person in heaven. I tried to find corroboration for this teaching in the catechism of the CC but couldn't. It's an interpretation of what Jesus referred to about marriage in response to the the test given to him by the Sadducees when they concocted an example of a woman who married 7 guys - all of whom widowed her. (Luke 20: 27 - 40 NAB).

So whenever you hear people talking about their faith and feelings where they KNOW that their wife, husband or child came to them after death to tell them how everything is alright, I ponder how this could be possible given what I was taught above. It's why when people tell me that they have proof in God because "He told them He exists" - mostly via a feeling since God does not literally talk to anyone today - it troubles me. If you come to me and tell me that you were visited by a departed family member and then tell me you know God is real because you can feel it, it brings up more doubts than comfort - to me at least.
I too came from an RCC background. What you may have been looking for is the mystical body of Christ. The RCC believes that souls on Earth, in purgatory, and in heaven are all of the same body. That goes along with what you are saying about the concepts of family and of marriage no longer existing in heaven. To me, that sounds like everyone blends together into one being and is yet another thing that sounds terrifying to me regarding heaven.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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25-04-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
(25-04-2014 10:09 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-04-2014 09:57 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  My understanding of the afterlife from the RCC is that the concept of family no longer exists. According to our priest, since the sacrament of matrimony is an exclusive type of love - it is only valid in our earthly life. This exclusive type of love cannot exist in heaven, so the idea is when you die you will not have any special affiliation with any other person in heaven. I tried to find corroboration for this teaching in the catechism of the CC but couldn't. It's an interpretation of what Jesus referred to about marriage in response to the the test given to him by the Sadducees when they concocted an example of a woman who married 7 guys - all of whom widowed her. (Luke 20: 27 - 40 NAB).

So whenever you hear people talking about their faith and feelings where they KNOW that their wife, husband or child came to them after death to tell them how everything is alright, I ponder how this could be possible given what I was taught above. It's why when people tell me that they have proof in God because "He told them He exists" - mostly via a feeling since God does not literally talk to anyone today - it troubles me. If you come to me and tell me that you were visited by a departed family member and then tell me you know God is real because you can feel it, it brings up more doubts than comfort - to me at least.
I too came from an RCC background. What you may have been looking for is the mystical body of Christ. The RCC believes that souls on Earth, in purgatory, and in heaven are all of the same body. That goes along with what you are saying about the concepts of family and of marriage no longer existing in heaven. To me, that sounds like everyone blends together into one being and is yet another thing that sounds terrifying to me regarding heaven.

Thanks. I couldn't pull out the idea from my memory banks.
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25-04-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
Sounds a bit like Nirvana to me...Huh
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25-04-2014, 04:11 PM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
(24-04-2014 09:38 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  So heaven doesn't exist in Islam then?

As I understand it, Islam's heaven is within viewing distance of its Hell so the righteous can hear the screams of the damned and that... makes them happy (wtf?).

"While religions tell us next to nothing useful or true about the universe, they do tell us an enormous amount - perhaps an embarrassing amount - about ourselves, about what we value, fear and lust after." Iain M Banks
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25-04-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
(25-04-2014 04:11 PM)daylightisabadthing Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 09:38 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  So heaven doesn't exist in Islam then?

As I understand it, Islam's heaven is within viewing distance of its Hell so the righteous can hear the screams of the damned and that... makes them happy (wtf?).

Yelp not getting those 72 virgins then. Wouldn't matter, they would just clone me 72 times, or I have to stay with male PC nerds.

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25-04-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: If hell exists than heaven cannot.
(24-04-2014 09:20 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Can anyone think of a way in which both hell and heaven could exist?
I can't, because I don't think heaven can be said to exist (it is not located anywhere in relation to anything).

However, hell... I usually call it "Earth". For some people, living on this planet is a temporary hell.
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