If it was real... part 1
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28-05-2014, 11:35 AM
If it was real... part 1
So let's try and have a serious intelligent discussion about a few things in the bible and let's discuss how they really happened.

I want to avoid saying "it's magic, God did it" because that's a cop out and doesn't explain anything.

Let's look at Eve eating the Apple this causing man to no longer be immortal.

Did the Apple have a poisonous chemical in it that when ingested caused a chemical reaction in her to no longer be mortal?

But if that was the case how did affect the bodies of other living things who didn't ingest this Apple? Was achemical gas released instead and breathed in by all other living things causing them to no longer live forever?

Any theories on how this happened?
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28-05-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: If it was real... part 1
I think the Eve/apple thing is going to be pretty hard to support without magic.

Presumably, Adam and Eve were immortal. They didn't age or die. They just were. Then they ate this forbidden fruit and lost their immortality. They did it before having children, so we could argue that some chemical in the fruit annihilated their immortality and their ability to pass it on to future generations.

But, that means that we first have to stipulate immortality, and even more far-fetched, some kind of fragile immortality that can be obliterated by fructose (or vitamin C, or whatever else it was). I find the idea of such a fragile immortality to be just as improbable, if not more so, than the idea of a petty supreme being with control issues.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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28-05-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: If it was real... part 1
I don't think you can get around this without involving magic. If immortality itself was real, then by definition, the immortal person could not die. And I say "could not" as opposed to "would not" because if death was even a possibility, then the person would not necessarily be immortal. How can we say a person "will not" die if there is even a possibility that something might cause them to die? Immortality must mean death is not possible. So how does one go from "cannot die" to "able to die" if we begin with the premise that there is nothing that could make the immortal person die? It would have to magic of some sort.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-05-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: If it was real... part 1
Interestingly, this very thing is the first item that my very religious friend, believing in the literal bible, questioned.

She knows I don't believe, so we normally don't touch the topic.

One day out of the blue she says: "I don't understand why we have to die. I know Eve brought it on us when she ate the apple. But then we had Jesus who cleaned us from all sin by sacrificing himself. So why do we have to die?"

For her, that's an earth shattering question.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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28-05-2014, 12:01 PM
RE: If it was real... part 1
Ok

So we will have to concede magic on that one. No way around it.

Next up let's look at the talking snake who spoke to Eve. Could all snakes talk at the time? Could only that specific snake talk? And if so how did he manage to form words with that mouth and tongue?

Satan posessing the snake would come under the magic category and should be avoided.

How would a lowly snake know about this tree and its poisonous chemicals when eve did not?
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28-05-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: If it was real... part 1
This is a bit silly. Trying to come up with a plausible explanation for why two immortal people suddenly needed to eat food and could now have babies do to the ingestion of some kind of poisonous apple is a bit like trying to rationalize Wily E Coyote cartoon. I don't know how to take this conversation at all seriously.
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28-05-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: If it was real... part 1
(28-05-2014 12:01 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  Ok

So we will have to concede magic on that one. No way around it.

Next up let's look at the talking snake who spoke to Eve. Could all snakes talk at the time? Could only that specific snake talk? And if so how did he manage to form words with that mouth and tongue?

Satan posessing the snake would come under the magic category and should be avoided.

How would a lowly snake know about this tree and its poisonous chemicals when eve did not?

You're gonna have a hard time with everything in Genesis sans magic. It's not a very well thought out narrative and has plot hole the size of face-off.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-05-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: If it was real... part 1
(28-05-2014 11:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  Interestingly, this very thing is the first item that my very religious friend, believing in the literal bible, questioned.

She knows I don't believe, so we normally don't touch the topic.

One day out of the blue she says: "I don't understand why we have to die. I know Eve brought it on us when she ate the apple. But then we had Jesus who cleaned us from all sin by sacrificing himself. So why do we have to die?"

For her, that's an earth shattering question.

St Paul tries to offuscate and explain away this issue in Rom 15, but ultimately your friend is on the right train of thought that will lead her down the path of skepticism (assuming she isnt there already)

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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28-05-2014, 01:14 PM
RE: If it was real... part 1
"Alex, I'll take fictional literature for $100"

This famous couple rejected an immortal life of retardation in favor of the ability to discern how fucked over they and all their offspring would be.

"Who are Bruce & Kris Jenner ?"

Oh sorry....we were looking for Adam & Eve

Ok playing along with this question, we have two full grown adult retarded children who can't even speak to each other. Oh wait they can speak to each other and they aren't retarded. Hmmm they must have been plucked from some other universe because made in the image of god has retardation written all over it.

They are immortal vegans and once they heard about the consequences of eating from this tempting looking fruit, they cut the tree down. No ? They didn't cut the tree down ? Did they at least mark the tree with some kind of poisonous placard ?Maybe follow a few hazmat guidelines ? No ?

"They ate the fruit"
THEY WHAT ?
Well that makes no sense. They intentionally commited suicide on their what, like 2nd or 3rd day alive. They obviously knew this god guy was a complete perv after holding two naked people captive and watching them all the time, they knew it was time to get out early before things got worse.

"They didnt die in the modern sense. They lost immortality and gained a conscious consideration for the consequences of their actions. They could now discern harmful actions compared to healthy helpful actions."

Hmm ok that is useful. Did they give god some fruit ?

"Nothing in the story about that"

That's too bad. Sounds like this fruit caused a metamorphosis that turned them into human beings whereas before they were just altered states of matter without any real biological components.

Couple of Pinocchio's

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-05-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: If it was real... part 1
No magic, it is just a fable.
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