If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-06-2017, 02:18 AM
If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
The word "discuss" is usually used to describe conversations between people with no results. the topics are always started again again again. People always discuss the same things, because they always have a lack of information or they simply ignore information just because it does not fit with their personal interest.

Information and logic are the parts of each other, they could not separete from each other. Logic without an information cannot be built. Information without logic is useless.

Having conversation about an issue which we dont have any information or not enough information is meaningless.

Information: There are two ways from work to home
Aim: We want to go home earlier, which way would be true choice ?
Information: The way 1 is 10 miles long, the way 2 is 5 miles long.
Information: All the other conditions are same.
Logic: The way 2 is the true choice.

So there is nothing to discuss. this is a simple example. Having small number of information or soo much information wont cause any change. When we have soo much information, we will first arrange the informations we need and we will built our way/ways step by step.


For this reason, I will never discuss with people, I just expect them to share information and help to built the way we need.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-06-2017, 03:32 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(21-06-2017 02:18 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  The word "discuss" is usually used to describe conversations between people with no results.

Source?

According to Cambridge dictionary discussion is: activity in which people talk about something and tell each other their ideas or opinions. Nothing about it having no results.

Quote:the topics are always started again again again. People always discuss the same things, because they always have a lack of information or they simply ignore information just because it does not fit with their personal interest.

Or maybe they discuss the same things cause new information was made available to them. Though with new information it isn't really same discussion - before book premiere people can talk how they hope it will be, after they can talk about how it is.

Quote:Information and logic are the parts of each other, they could not separete from each other. Logic without an information cannot be built. Information without logic is useless.

Having conversation about an issue which we dont have any information or not enough information is meaningless.

Information: There are two ways from work to home
Aim: We want to go home earlier, which way would be true choice ?
Information: The way 1 is 10 miles long, the way 2 is 5 miles long.
Information: All the other conditions are same.
Logic: The way 2 is the true choice.

So there is nothing to discuss. this is a simple example. Having small number of information or soo much information wont cause any change. When we have soo much information, we will first arrange the informations we need and we will built our way/ways step by step.

It's simplistic take which hardly reflects reality accurately.

Information that is facts about a situation, person, event can be interpreted differently by different people, like for example fact that Trump pulled out of Paris accord remains fact regardless of one political stance but how one sees that action is heavily tied to one political affiliation. I would say that amount of info would change things there: going by above example saying that Trump pulled out of Paris accord may mean criticism from person opposed to such decision, however with new info saying that accord in question was fraudulent such criticism would be less likely.

Quote:For this reason, I will never discuss with people, I just expect them to share information and help to built the way we need.

So your contribution to this forum will be only monologues (given how discussion is defined)?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Szuchow's post
21-06-2017, 03:47 AM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2017 03:51 AM by Aliza.)
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
Why does there have to be a "true" route and a "false" route? Why can't they both be "true?" Both routes lead you from work to home. One route is longer... but they both accomplish the same goal.

Maybe your goal is to get from point A to point B in the shortest distance, but my goal is to get to the same place, and have fun along the trip. Or maybe my goal is to travel the safest route, even if that other route is longer. Maybe the shorter route takes longer time and the longer route is along a highway, so it's faster to travel.

Both routes are true, but each may service different agendas.

Edit: I missed this part: "Information: All the other conditions are same." Fine, so one route makes me happier. One route enables me to drive a little longer in my brand new car and spend some "me" time listening to the radio a little longer.

Oh, and if you're not going to discuss things, there was no point in joining a forum. Discussing stuff is what we do. Aside from some forum games, all we do is discuss stuff.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Aliza's post
21-06-2017, 03:51 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(21-06-2017 03:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Why does there have to be a "true" route and a "false" route? Why can't they both be "true?" Both routes lead you from work to home. One route is longer... but they both accomplish the same goal.

Maybe your goal is to get from point A to point B in the shortest distance, but my goal is to get to the same place, and have fun along the trip. Or maybe my goal is to travel the safest route, even if that other route is longer. Maybe the shorter route takes longer time and the longer route is along a highway, so it's faster to travel.

Both routes are true, but each may service different agendas.

Stated goal was coming to home earlier so indeed only one road would fit this criteria (in vacuum as IRL strikes, roadblocks, etc. happen). Using word "true" is strange though - it's true that one route is shorter but it does not make it true route.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-06-2017, 04:02 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(21-06-2017 03:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 03:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Why does there have to be a "true" route and a "false" route? Why can't they both be "true?" Both routes lead you from work to home. One route is longer... but they both accomplish the same goal.

Maybe your goal is to get from point A to point B in the shortest distance, but my goal is to get to the same place, and have fun along the trip. Or maybe my goal is to travel the safest route, even if that other route is longer. Maybe the shorter route takes longer time and the longer route is along a highway, so it's faster to travel.

Both routes are true, but each may service different agendas.

Stated goal was coming to home earlier so indeed only one road would fit this criteria (in vacuum as IRL strikes, roadblocks, etc. happen). Using word "true" is strange though - it's true that one route is shorter but it does not make it true route.

The goal was to go home early, not necessarily arrive home fastest. When I want to leave work early, it's not always to go home. Sometimes there are shoes to be purchased. Regardless of the route chosen, we leave work at the same time.

Even if the goal is to arrive home earliest (recognizing OP's language barrier), then one route may make more sense, but both are still true.

If OP wants to drive the short route and I want to drive the long route because I "believe" that it will get me home quicker, then the sane thing to do would be just let me dictate how I drive home. It's my drive, not theirs. If someone is bothered by my insistence to drive the 10 mile route, then that person should consider seeing a therapist and try focusing on their own problems and not mine. I think that's what this discussion really boils down to; "Think exactly like me, or you're wrong."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
21-06-2017, 04:08 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(21-06-2017 04:02 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 03:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Stated goal was coming to home earlier so indeed only one road would fit this criteria (in vacuum as IRL strikes, roadblocks, etc. happen). Using word "true" is strange though - it's true that one route is shorter but it does not make it true route.

The goal was to go home early, not necessarily arrive home fastest. When I want to leave work early, it's not always to go home. Sometimes there are shoes to be purchased. Regardless of the route chosen, we leave work at the same time.

Even if the goal is to arrive home earliest (recognizing OP's language barrier), then one route may make more sense, but both are still true.

If OP wants to drive the short route and I want to drive the long route because I "believe" that it will get me home quicker, then the sane thing to do would be just let me dictate how I drive home. It's my drive, not theirs. If someone is bothered by my insistence to drive the 10 mile route, then that person should consider seeing a therapist and try focusing on their own problems and not mine. I think that's what this discussion really boils down to; "Think exactly like me, or you're wrong."

I think it's about being in home as fast as one can - then one road is better choice but as I said only in vacuum as road conditions may make difference. And there is no reason to bring "truth" to the discussion.

Using word "true" is just unnecessary in example and I would say meant to push certain narrative.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
21-06-2017, 04:32 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(21-06-2017 02:18 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  The word "discuss" is usually used to describe conversations between people with no results. the topics are always started again again again. People always discuss the same things, because they always have a lack of information or they simply ignore information just because it does not fit with their personal interest.

Sometimes people respond defensively to save face, but later think about it and change their opinions.

Sometimes other people who are reading the exchange learn something useful.

Sometimes the available information doesn't lead to black-and-white conclusions, so people discuss their preferences.

Sometimes people's preferences overrule logical results because the available information is too obviously incomplete.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thoreauvian's post
21-06-2017, 04:59 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
Szuchow said it perfectly... OP's scenario only exists in a vacuum. Adequate information was not provided and we were asked to take the parameters "on faith.

To OP's point, I suppose we never discuss the merits of breathing. As far as I know, everyone understands that they breathe air, and even if the details weren't explained to us in elementary school, we all have the senses necessary to experience breathing for ourselves to know first hand that we breathe. There's nothing to discuss. We do indeed breathe.

When there is actual information (none of this "take it on faith" shit), we know it, and we agree that we're all experiencing the same thing, there really isn't anything to discuss.

For everything else, we discuss.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
21-06-2017, 05:01 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
Your intro says you're 16--is this a draft of some paper you're planning on turning in that you're trying to improve by figuring out where it goes off the rails, logically? If so, you're in the right place.

Your example of two routes home reminds me of the assume-we-have-a-can-opener joke. People have discussions about which route to take home because "all other conditions are the same" is a lie in the real world. In the real world there are traffic and stoplights and scenery and that grocery store on one of the routes for when you realize, once you have started on the other route, that you needed to pick up some milk on the way home.

People also have discussions for plenty of other reasons than winning a point or the simple transmission of information/logical conclusions based on that information. (and of course there's a difference between discussion and just talking; it seems to me that you're conflating those two to some extent) Among the most important discussions to be had is the idea of what is "enough" information, which you gloss over in your third paragraph in your hurry to get to your example.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like julep's post
21-06-2017, 05:21 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(21-06-2017 02:18 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  The word "discuss" is usually used to describe conversations between people with no results. the topics are always started again again again. People always discuss the same things, because they always have a lack of information or they simply ignore information just because it does not fit with their personal interest.

Information and logic are the parts of each other, they could not separete from each other. Logic without an information cannot be built. Information without logic is useless.

Having conversation about an issue which we dont have any information or not enough information is meaningless.

Information: There are two ways from work to home
Aim: We want to go home earlier, which way would be true choice ?
Information: The way 1 is 10 miles long, the way 2 is 5 miles long.
Information: All the other conditions are same.
Logic: The way 2 is the true choice.

So there is nothing to discuss. this is a simple example. Having small number of information or soo much information wont cause any change. When we have soo much information, we will first arrange the informations we need and we will built our way/ways step by step.


For this reason, I will never discuss with people, I just expect them to share information and help to built the way we need.

You have to have an idea of what the goal is before discussing something. A lot of times on this forum, we just get bloviating proselytizers that are immune to criticism about their religion or any new information that contradicts their apologism.

But sometimes we get people that are truly looking for answers and are ready to listen, that's where this forum really shines, time after time these exchanges can be very educational, everyone that reads these threads can learn new things. Some of the best exchanges occur between atheists going back and forth on the myth or reality of Jesus or the origins of the early church and the creation of it's doctrines.

When you get into the deep woods on these subjects, we are well past the childish proselytizing and it's about like sitting in the room as professors exchange information on a college level. Thumbsup

There's no way to tell what goes on in the mind of a lurker that never responds in the thread, but I'm willing to bet when you get to this level of information exchange, a reader can see something and go off on 10 different rabbit trails as they research something themselves. This isn't something apologists can even begin to address because it's not the standard elementary day vs. age apologism rhetoric but it's a scholarly treatise on what style or philosophical school that Paul was using and where it was derived.

These are the types of things that apologists completely fall on their face if they attempt to address it, because it quickly becomes apparent that they are getting their information from certain apologists and that many of these sources have serious credibility issues and have made grievous errors about things. This is where these stale excuses die and their con game is exposed.

So when a believer wants to come on this forum to extol the virtues of their religion, sometimes it is very useful to exchange information, but it may be useful to people that you aren't aware of that are reading the thread.

Kudos to the silent but dedicated lurker, that has a desire to research things, but not sling any stale apologism publicly.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheInquisition's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: