If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
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22-06-2017, 03:28 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(21-06-2017 10:45 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  You're talking only about matters of fact. There is plenty to discuss when it comes to value judgements, such as morality.

Of course there is nothing to discuss in very simple scenarios. But in real life, we're faced with decisions which have lots of factors and we rarely have all the information. So a discussion helps us do our best to find a sensible plan.


All the informations may not be proven of being %100 true but we accept them as %100 true while we build the logic. For example we are not %100 sure that tomarrow the sun will rise again but we accept it as "fact" while we make our plans for tomarrow. Even if there are many informations about something, we need to determine our aim first and then gather the needed informations, so build the logic.

Logic=explanation=interpretation and some other words, these are the same things. They may be true or false based on the informations they rely.

Discuss mean "to talk about a subject with someone and tell each other your ideas or opinions", we dont need each others opinions about an event. If we have the same informations, we will have the same logical results. Logic is not something individual, its universal.
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22-06-2017, 03:47 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
"to talk about a subject with someone and tell each other your ideas or opinions"


We could only have different logics when we have different informations. Then we can share these different informations with each other. This would be called as "information share".

You have even discussed about the example I gave in the first post, because some of you simply ignored the informations given, some of you created your own imaginal informations to discuss with others, therefore you started a meaningless and endless discuss. Some of you said "what if I left the work earlier", some of you said "you cant tell me which way I should follow".
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22-06-2017, 04:22 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(22-06-2017 03:47 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  You have even discussed about the example I gave in the first post, because some of you simply ignored the informations given, some of you created your own imaginal informations to discuss with others, therefore you started a meaningless and endless discuss.

We didn't buy into your stipulated and loaded definition of "discussion."
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22-06-2017, 04:36 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 04:41 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(22-06-2017 03:28 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  All the informations may not be proven of being %100 true but we accept them as %100 true while we build the logic. For example we are not %100 sure that tomarrow the sun will rise again but we accept it as "fact" while we make our plans for tomarrow.

There is no good reason for doubting that sun will rise tomorrow. I may not have this mythical certainty but I would have to be fool to think differently.

Quote:Logic=explanation=interpretation and some other words, these are the same things. They may be true or false based on the informations they rely.

Nonsense. Explanation and interpretation are similar but neither of these words mean the same as logic nor are synonymous with it.

Quote:Discuss mean "to talk about a subject with someone and tell each other your ideas or opinions", we dont need each others opinions about an event.

I don't need others opinion about event x, yet sometimes I want their opinion.

But you don't get to tell "us" what "we" need.

Quote:If we have the same informations, we will have the same logical results. Logic is not something individual, its universal.

You're wrong. If two person have same information about event x they still can reach different conclusions - according to their interpretation of available information. There is also problem with assuming that both sides have the same info which isn't exactly likely.

It's a fact that event called Holodomor happened but even people having wealth of information about stalinist period of USSR history have differing interpretation of it - for some it was genocide, for others negligence and for (now) minority simply a price to pay for progress.

(22-06-2017 03:47 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  "to talk about a subject with someone and tell each other your ideas or opinions"


We could only have different logics when we have different informations. Then we can share these different informations with each other. This would be called as "information share".

Or, you know discussion.

Quote:You have even discussed about the example I gave in the first post, because some of you simply ignored the informations given, some of you created your own imaginal informations to discuss with others, therefore you started a meaningless and endless discuss. Some of you said "what if I left the work earlier", some of you said "you cant tell me which way I should follow".

Expected congratulatory nods for your simplistic take on what discussion is?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-06-2017, 04:51 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 04:58 AM by DLJ.)
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(22-06-2017 03:28 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  ...
Logic=explanation=interpretation and some other words, these are the same things. They may be true or false based on the informations they rely.
...

As English is not your first language, perhaps it would be useful to take a look at this model to assist with the definitions...

[Image: bostock-learning-industrypresentationae2...1413531700]

My preferred definition for 'knowledge' (from CISM) is 'actionable information' and 'information' (from ITIL) is 'message received and understood'.

'Logic', by contrast, is a thinking tool.

Wink

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22-06-2017, 04:59 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(22-06-2017 03:28 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  Discuss mean "to talk about a subject with someone and tell each other your ideas or opinions", we dont need each others opinions about an event.

We all have different backgrounds and different experiences which color our opinions. If everybody had perfect information then, possibly, other opinions would not be needed but nobody has perfect information. We need to undertsand how others view events in order to determine if we are missing any key pieces of information and make better decisions.

Quote:If we have the same informations, we will have the same logical results. Logic is not something individual, its universal.

We never have the same information except in utterly trivial cases.

Just out of curiosity, what value did you expect from starting a discussion about not needing discussions? If you don't value other opinions then why are you trying to change opinions?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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22-06-2017, 05:07 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 05:13 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
I wondered what the point of coming to a discussion forum is, if you don't value discussion.

My point about morality wasn't addressed. Even with all the facts, what we should do is a matter for discussion.

And sure, we can assume certain things are true. But in any kind of relatively complex real-life situation, there are going to be a wealth of unknowns. Whenever other people are involved, for one thing, you cannot possibly just predict all the outcomes.

Even in the initial example of this thread, there will be other factors. It's never going to be identical. One route is probably safer than the other, maybe it has different speed limits, maybe it would allow for performing another task on the way... life isn't that simple.

For entirely abstract, mathematical problems, of course we can have a definite solution.

PS: often there is so much information that it takes a discussion to sift through it and analyse it in the right way.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-06-2017, 05:31 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 05:34 AM by HeYYow.)
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(22-06-2017 04:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 03:28 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  Discuss mean "to talk about a subject with someone and tell each other your ideas or opinions", we dont need each others opinions about an event.

We all have different backgrounds and different experiences which color our opinions. If everybody had perfect information then, possibly, other opinions would not be needed but nobody has perfect information. We need to undertsand how others view events in order to determine if we are missing any key pieces of information and make better decisions.

Quote:If we have the same informations, we will have the same logical results. Logic is not something individual, its universal.

We never have the same information except in utterly trivial cases.

Just out of curiosity, what value did you expect from starting a discussion about not needing discussions? If you don't value other opinions then why are you trying to change opinions?


If we dont have the same informations, then we are supposed to share informations with each other. Other's view can be different because of different informations.

As I gave in the example:

Information: I want to go home earlier.
Information: There are two way from work to home.
Information: One of them is 10 miles long and other one is 5 miles long.
Information: All the other conditions are same.
Question: Which one of these ways would be true choice to go home earlier ?
Logic: 5 miles one is the true choice.


You cant interpret or build a logic or describe or create a perspective different than this one. You can only build another logic when a new information is added in the fiction. For example the 5 miles long road has a speed limit while 10 miles long dont. This is a new information and may complately change the logic. But it will change the logic for everyone who has the information. So there is nothing to discuss.
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22-06-2017, 05:35 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(22-06-2017 05:31 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  So there is nothing to discuss.

OK. Bye.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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22-06-2017, 05:44 AM
RE: If there is information, then there is nothing to discuss
(22-06-2017 05:31 AM)HeYYow Wrote:  So there is nothing to discuss.

Seeing that you aren't capable of recognizing how your simplistic examples hardly correspond with reality there indeed is nothing to discuss. Guess I was right - you're only interested in monologues (and perhaps hearing how special you are).

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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