If there was a creator
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20-08-2015, 03:41 PM
If there was a creator
As a born again atheist I can comprehend how life could evolve from a universe that always existed and never ends, and in a universe that never ends, not only are all things imaginable possible, they are highly probable.

Does this mean that gods exist? It is possible that there are beings in the universe who would seem as gods to us, but I doubt very much that any of them had anything to do with the creation of the universe, mainly because they are notoriously immature and so lacking in self esteem that they demand worship and adherence to ridiculous rules, so if any such beings do exist, they are logically lesser beings.

I do however leave open the possibility of a creator, but unlike the various self centered gods, I see a possible creator as a gardener, one who uses comets to plant the seeds of life in the soil of pots that we call planets.

Each seed contains all the information required to create a biosphere in which life can grow and thrive, where each niche if filled, and filled again after an extinction event, so that life may continue.

This is why we share 90% of our DNA with trees, because all life on this planet came from that single set of instructions, and what science calls 'junk' DNA is actually the information required to regrow a viable biosphere.

Such a creator would not scrutinize each individual life, would not require that the plants worship it, or consider that the flowers sin and must repent, it would simply enjoy the garden, the gazillion of planets around the bazillion of stars in each of the billions of galaxies that exist in the universe that never ends.

So is there a god? Perhaps, but if so he is not worthy of my consideration.
Is there a creator? Perhaps, but if so I am not important enough for it to even know my name, much less be involved in my life.

"My children, I created you, and I created this vat of boiling oil.
I will hold you over the vat and drop you.
If you promise to worship me I will catch you before you fall in.
If you do not promise to worship me, you have thrown yourself into the vat of boiling oil."

Yahweh was a sociopath.
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20-08-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: If there was a creator
The philosophical conception of a «gardener god» or «watchmaker god» is at the core of deism, one of the softest form of theism. While it makes sense and seems rather plausible at face value, it actually is yet another projection of human sense of order and mental construct on the universe. Human thought process is hierarchical. We perceive things and class them in terms of power, greatness, intelligence, beauty, complexity or any other category that we might find useful or fancy. Because of this we have the tendency to project our social model into that classification where things high in the hierarchy become more important than those bellow. Theism at its core revolves around the idea that great things create, order and rule lesser things. For example apex predator rule their ecosystem or that masterworks rule the domain of arts, etc. Apply to the universe and the entire cosmos, this means that all that there is was necessary created by the most powerful, extraordinary, beautiful, etc. thing possible and this thing is named God.

Because of our own self perceive notion of greatness, theist frequently argue that God has a special relationship with us. Either we are his children, favorite creation or even ultimate achievement. It basically order the cosmos like most primitive human society with a king/leader/warlord/emperor at its head. Of course this conception of the universe is rather false since we have demonstrated that everything in the universe seems to emerge from the interaction of progressively smaller and more insignificant things in our constructed hierarchical pyramid. In resume great things emerge from small things and not vice-versa. Masterworks don't produce pale imitation. Apex predator don’t master their ecosystem they are sometimes amongst the most fragile piece of it. Small work are produced and masterworks emerge amongst them from time to time.

Deism, to me, would be retaining that top to bottom hierarchical organisation of the universe while removing the more directly anthropocentric aspect of other forms of theism. It sit at point where it still can't shake off that last layer of traditional and anthropocentric vision of the universe, but understood because of the size and grandeur of the cosmos that human can’t be that significant. Because of it, I perceive it as wrong, but as much as other forms of theism. What do you think about that?
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20-08-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: If there was a creator
(20-08-2015 03:41 PM)BornAgainAtheist Wrote:  As a born again atheist I can comprehend how life could evolve from a universe that always existed and never ends, and in a universe that never ends, not only are all things imaginable possible, they are highly probable.

Not all things imaginable are possible. The universe obeys laws; things that contradict these laws remain impossible.

Not all things possible will happen. The universe occupies a distinct state at every given moment in time. Even discounting the law of entropy, there will by necessity be a great number of states which are never realized prior to the heat death of the universe. Counting the law of entropy, there are an even greater number, since there are many states which could have existed at entropy level X but cannot exist at X + 1.

(20-08-2015 03:41 PM)BornAgainAtheist Wrote:  Does this mean that gods exist?

No.

(20-08-2015 03:41 PM)BornAgainAtheist Wrote:  This is why we share 90% of our DNA with trees, because all life on this planet came from that single set of instructions, and what science calls 'junk' DNA is actually the information required to regrow a viable biosphere.

More probably, we share a great deal of our DNA with other organisms because we all arose through the same natural processes and from the same basic chemical reactions, and it doesn't take much in the way of alteration to a DNA strand to get a big change in the resulting organism.

No creator is required.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: If there was a creator
Not remotely what "junk DNA" is, but thanks for playing. Time to play our old favorite gameshow around here:

GO READ A FUCKING BOOK.

Seriously. If you want to talk about biochem, that's awesome, but learn about it, first. Try talking to (or emailing) some professors in the field, and ask them for info.

But that's woo, through and through.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-08-2015, 04:46 PM
RE: If there was a creator
(20-08-2015 04:10 PM)epronovost Wrote:  What do you think about that?

I think you agree with the first sentence in my post Wink

"My children, I created you, and I created this vat of boiling oil.
I will hold you over the vat and drop you.
If you promise to worship me I will catch you before you fall in.
If you do not promise to worship me, you have thrown yourself into the vat of boiling oil."

Yahweh was a sociopath.
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20-08-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: If there was a creator
(20-08-2015 04:25 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No creator is required.

Agreed.
Was just arguing the point for the theists Smile

"My children, I created you, and I created this vat of boiling oil.
I will hold you over the vat and drop you.
If you promise to worship me I will catch you before you fall in.
If you do not promise to worship me, you have thrown yourself into the vat of boiling oil."

Yahweh was a sociopath.
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20-08-2015, 04:49 PM
RE: If there was a creator
(20-08-2015 04:32 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  GO READ A FUCKING BOOK.

How very sweet. Bowing

"My children, I created you, and I created this vat of boiling oil.
I will hold you over the vat and drop you.
If you promise to worship me I will catch you before you fall in.
If you do not promise to worship me, you have thrown yourself into the vat of boiling oil."

Yahweh was a sociopath.
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20-08-2015, 05:02 PM
RE: If there was a creator
(20-08-2015 04:46 PM)BornAgainAtheist Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 04:10 PM)epronovost Wrote:  What do you think about that?

I think you agree with the first sentence in my post Wink

I actually disagree with an element of your first sentence. I don't believe our observable universe is eternal and always was. In fact the Big Bang theory demonstrate that our observable universe started to exist about 14 billion years ago and it is theorised that it will not remain for eternity. I do believe that life, including our own, naturally evolved without the need of any sort of deity or deity like creature on Earth around 3 billion years ago.
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20-08-2015, 11:39 PM
RE: If there was a creator
(20-08-2015 05:02 PM)epronovost Wrote:  I don't believe our observable universe is eternal and always was.

Very recently there has been a new theory that the universe is an eternal liquid with no actual beginning or end, and our observable space is an eddy in the flow.

Actually sounded more plausible to me than a compact singularity suddenly expanding into infinity, because that means the universe is a ball with an outer surface past which is nothing.

But science is still expanding it knowledge on such things. Smile

"My children, I created you, and I created this vat of boiling oil.
I will hold you over the vat and drop you.
If you promise to worship me I will catch you before you fall in.
If you do not promise to worship me, you have thrown yourself into the vat of boiling oil."

Yahweh was a sociopath.
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23-08-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: If there was a creator
(20-08-2015 11:39 PM)BornAgainAtheist Wrote:  Very recently there has been a new theory that the universe is an eternal liquid with no actual beginning or end, and our observable space is an eddy in the flow.

Actually sounded more plausible to me than a compact singularity suddenly expanding into infinity, because that means the universe is a ball with an outer surface past which is nothing.

But science is still expanding it knowledge on such things. Smile

Interesting that you have an open mind. You won't find a whole lot of that around here. You'll find some, but not as much as you might expect based on the title of the site.
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