If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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09-06-2015, 08:00 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 07:43 AM)tomilay Wrote:  My issue entropy is past tense. I have since moved on.

I'll take that as an admission that you have no argument.

Quote:The Ferrari analogy as used by intelligent design proponents is a fair point. Not one to dismiss off-hand in my opinion.

You keep saying it is a fair point but you don't explain why. Evolution deals with self-replicating organisms and huge stretches of time. The Ferrari analogy deals with inanimate matter and, generally, a single event. The two have almost nothing in common so there is no "fair point" there; it is an attempt to misdirect.

Quote:Looking at the origin of life in general. I still wonder why there is only one known genesis on earth. That can be a sticking point, because it would seem like it is not a common occurrence at all.

Abiogenesis is still a very grey area. We don't know that there was only one occurrence, only that the bulk of surviving life apparently descends from a single strain. Perhaps one strain simply out-competed the others, perhaps one got off to an early start, perhaps multiple early forms of life merged in a symbiotic manner,... there are a number of natural possibilities to investigate. Jumping to a supernatural explanation seems to me to be incredibly premature and nothing more that an argument from ignorance or personal incredulity.

Quote:The notion that it could be so rare as to be the only tree of life in the universe, lends weight to the argument that favors divine intervention.

Various experiments showing that simple chemicals combine to create molecules that are required for life imply that it may not be so unusual. I don't see support for the notion that it is so rare that we are the only case. Even if it is rare, the universe is huge so even extremely likely events have plenty of opportunities to occur.

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09-06-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 06:32 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Personally I would not be surprised to find life outside of earth. If you subscribe to the mediocrity principle, that seems like a reasonable position.

I am saying I don't understand how life reconciles in with the second law.

Lets try this approach:

What about the second law of thermodynamics do you feel is contrary to life?

My guess is it involves a misuse of the word "complexity", but I'd like you to explain your objection rather than guessing before I respond.
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09-06-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 07:43 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The notion that it could be so rare as to be the only tree of life in the universe, lends weight to the argument that favors divine intervention.

Then you go and do this.

I don't think I buy what you are selling.

By the way that statement contradicts itself. The divine would be another form of life, right?

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09-06-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 08:40 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 07:43 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The notion that it could be so rare as to be the only tree of life in the universe, lends weight to the argument that favors divine intervention.

Then you go and do this.

I don't think I buy what you are selling.

By the way that statement contradicts itself. The divine would be another form of life, right?
Divine could be some form of life. Or God. I am not saying it's a good argument. But it is made easier by the rarity of life and many branches of it, as far we can tell.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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09-06-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 08:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 06:32 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Personally I would not be surprised to find life outside of earth. If you subscribe to the mediocrity principle, that seems like a reasonable position.

I am saying I don't understand how life reconciles in with the second law.

Lets try this approach:

What about the second law of thermodynamics do you feel is contrary to life?
No.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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09-06-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 07:54 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 07:43 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The notion that it could be so rare as to be the only tree of life in the universe, lends weight to the argument that favors divine intervention.

How does that favour divine intervention exactly?
It's easier to argue for a miraculous occurrence. Is it right? Not necessarily.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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09-06-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 08:56 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 07:54 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  How does that favour divine intervention exactly?

It's easier to argue for a miraculous occurrence. Is it right? Not necessarily.

No it isn't.

To argue a miraculous occurrence, you'd need to be able to prove that miracles can happen, not to mention you'd need to be able to stipulate the miracle worker in question...

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09-06-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 08:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 07:43 AM)tomilay Wrote:  My issue entropy is past tense. I have since moved on.

I'll take that as an admission that you have no argument.

Quote:The Ferrari analogy as used by intelligent design proponents is a fair point. Not one to dismiss off-hand in my opinion.

You keep saying it is a fair point but you don't explain why. Evolution deals with self-replicating organisms and huge stretches of time. The Ferrari analogy deals with inanimate matter and, generally, a single event. The two have almost nothing in common so there is no "fair point" there; it is an attempt to misdirect.

Quote:Looking at the origin of life in general. I still wonder why there is only one known genesis on earth. That can be a sticking point, because it would seem like it is not a common occurrence at all.

Abiogenesis is still a very grey area. We don't know that there was only one occurrence, only that the bulk of surviving life apparently descends from a single strain. Perhaps one strain simply out-competed the others, perhaps one got off to an early start, perhaps multiple early forms of life merged in a symbiotic manner,... there are a number of natural possibilities to investigate. Jumping to a supernatural explanation seems to me to be incredibly premature and nothing more that an argument from ignorance or personal incredulity.

Quote:The notion that it could be so rare as to be the only tree of life in the universe, lends weight to the argument that favors divine intervention.

Various experiments showing that simple chemicals combine to create molecules that are required for life imply that it may not be so unusual. I don't see support for the notion that it is so rare that we are the only case. Even if it is rare, the universe is huge so even extremely likely events have plenty of opportunities to occur.
The Ferrari point is fair because a Ferrari is obviously designed. When religious people see life, the self organization appears to be something designed. Almost like a program.

Abiogenesis is indeed gray. But it does not change the fact that there is no evidence, that goes beyond reasonable suppositions, for other life trees on earth. Or anywhere else.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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09-06-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 08:54 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 08:40 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Then you go and do this.

I don't think I buy what you are selling.

By the way that statement contradicts itself. The divine would be another form of life, right?
Divine could be some form of life. Or God. I am not saying it's a good argument. But it is made easier by the rarity of life and many branches of it, as far we can tell.

We don't know at this point how rare life actually is. The fact that it arises on this planet in so many diverse places, (including sulfur chimneys in the ocean) would seem to indicate it's ubiquitous.

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09-06-2015, 09:04 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 09:00 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 08:54 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Divine could be some form of life. Or God. I am not saying it's a good argument. But it is made easier by the rarity of life and many branches of it, as far we can tell.

We don't know at this point how rare life actually is. The fact that it arises on this planet in so many diverse places, (including sulfur chimneys in the ocean) would seem to indicate it's ubiquitous.
I place my faith in the fact that given the size of the universe and possibilities we have seen on earth. It is not rare. But it has never been observed outside earth.

I don't see the value of denying the obvious.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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