If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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09-06-2015, 09:06 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 08:54 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Divine could be some form of life. Or God. I am not saying it's a good argument. But it is made easier by the rarity of life and many branches of it, as far we can tell.

"the rarity of life" -- on what are you basing this? We know only one tiny corner of the universe. Assuming life is rare in the universe is not justified.

"and many branches of it" -- so you understand that once life starts it can flourish and yet you don't see that as an argument against "the rarity of life".

You don't seem to have thought this through.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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09-06-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(17-12-2014 08:06 PM)The Drake Wrote:  In all of their searching and "scientific" endeavors, if fundies were to come across actual evidence...then I don't think they would accept it. It would ruin the "MAGIC". I'd like everyone's thoughts on this please.

The Pope has already said God does not do works of Magic.

What's worrying is fundies are now saying evolution is a device of god... ffs you can't win with these people.

Here is an illuminating text from Monty Python regarding Christian logic.

Man in crowd III: Hail Messiah!
Brian: I'm not the Messiah!
Man in crowd III: I say you are, Lord, and I should know; I've followed a few!
Crowd: Hail Messiah!
Brian: I'm not the Messiah, would you please listen, I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Woman in crowd II: Only the true Messiah denies his divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!


Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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09-06-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Bucky beat me too it. Life being a rarity is pure speculation.

For all we know the other side of the universe resembles that of Star Wars.

I've never understood the "car in the garage" design crap. All the elements and conditions on our planet aren't located in this garage are they? No. Didn't think so.
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09-06-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 09:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The Ferrari point is fair because a Ferrari is obviously designed. When religious people see life, the self organization appears to be something designed. Almost like a program.

That doesn't make the analogy valid in any way. If anything, it demonstrates that design is recognized when compared to nature which doesn't exhibit the hallmarks of design. The Ferrari argument is just wrong no matter how you look at it.

Quote:Abiogenesis is indeed gray. But it does not change the fact that there is no evidence, that goes beyond reasonable suppositions, for other life trees on earth. Or anywhere else.

Are you a biologist? If not, you are arguing from personal incredulity. The answer, as I understand it from what I've read, is that we don't fully understand just how we ended up where we are.

I'm not clear that your claim there there is a single tree on earth is valid in the first place. Do you have a citation for that?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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09-06-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 09:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 08:54 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Divine could be some form of life. Or God. I am not saying it's a good argument. But it is made easier by the rarity of life and many branches of it, as far we can tell.

"the rarity of life" -- on what are you basing this? We know only one tiny corner of the universe. Assuming life is rare in the universe is not justified.

"and many branches of it" -- so you understand that once life starts it can flourish and yet you don't see that as an argument against "the rarity of life".

You don't seem to have thought this through.
Even if we consider only the solar system. Life appears limited to only earth. Most of the universe appears particularly hostile to life as we know it.

Even then I think there is good reason to believe that it is not unique to earth. Just like we believed there were exoplanets before their discovery. Mediocrity principle.

But that is not evidence in the scientific sense. On the basis of the evidence, it is fair to say that, at the very least , life as we know it is a rare occurrence.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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09-06-2015, 09:26 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 09:18 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 09:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The Ferrari point is fair because a Ferrari is obviously designed. When religious people see life, the self organization appears to be something designed. Almost like a program.

That doesn't make the analogy valid in any way. If anything, it demonstrates that design is recognized when compared to nature which doesn't exhibit the hallmarks of design. The Ferrari argument is just wrong no matter how you look at it.

Quote:Abiogenesis is indeed gray. But it does not change the fact that there is no evidence, that goes beyond reasonable suppositions, for other life trees on earth. Or anywhere else.

Are you a biologist? If not, you are arguing from personal incredulity. The answer, as I understand it from what I've read, is that we don't fully understand just how we ended up where we are.

I'm not clear that your claim there there is a single tree on earth is valid in the first place. Do you have a citation for that?
And you are trying to argue from authority.

I don't need to prove a negative. If you have evidence for a second bio-genesis, you should feel free to table it.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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09-06-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(17-12-2014 08:38 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  You mean you wouldn't buy an apple from such a trustworthy face?

[Image: william-lane-craig.jpg]


Why? I would TOTALLY buy a car from this salesman. Angel

It's not the face that creeps me out. It's those freaky hands. Dodgy

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-06-2015, 09:48 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 09:07 AM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 08:06 PM)The Drake Wrote:  In all of their searching and "scientific" endeavors, if fundies were to come across actual evidence...then I don't think they would accept it. It would ruin the "MAGIC". I'd like everyone's thoughts on this please.

The Pope has already said God does not do works of Magic.

What's worrying is fundies are now saying evolution is a device of god... ffs you can't win with these people.

Here is an illuminating text from Monty Python regarding Christian logic.

Man in crowd III: Hail Messiah!
Brian: I'm not the Messiah!
Man in crowd III: I say you are, Lord, and I should know; I've followed a few!
Crowd: Hail Messiah!
Brian: I'm not the Messiah, would you please listen, I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Woman in crowd II: Only the true Messiah denies his divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!


Archi

Hahaha that's brilliant! Yet unfortunately so true. They've got an excuse for everything.

Evolution putting a thorn in the side of your creationist ideas? No problem! Just say evolution was God's design!
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09-06-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 09:26 AM)tomilay Wrote:  And you are trying to argue from authority.

There is a difference between pointing out that you are speculating from a position of ignorance and arguing from authority.

Even if I had made a claim it would be based on the general consensus of experts on the field and that sort of argument from authority is not a fallacy.

Quote:I don't need to prove a negative. If you have evidence for a second bio-genesis, you should feel free to table it.

I didn't claim there was one. I noted that you have no evidence for your claim that there wasn't.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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09-06-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
I don't think you get what the second law is. All it states is that in the transition from one state to another absent the introduction of work or "heat" energy that entropy will tend to increase in a predictable pattern in accordance with changes in properties such as velocity, pressure, and enthalpy. Our sun currently supplies a great deal of "heat" energy to out planet, as well as performing work on it. The universe as a whole is experiencing an increase in entropy due to increasing volume.

I also tend to doubt that life is rare even locally in our solar system. Perhaps we would find something in the atmosphere of Venus. The surface might be too hot, but I wouldn't be surprised to find some living thing high in the methane clouds.

Also I don't quite get why you think the Ferrari argument is a good one. We understand the origin of the illusion of design in living organisms. This isn't a mystery anymore.
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