If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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10-06-2015, 08:10 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(10-06-2015 07:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 05:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it's not just like that. We know that burglars exist. Drinking Beverage

But knowing that burglars exists is not a requirement for recognizing that your house has been robbed.

Particular items missing, a particular pattern of disorder, is sufficient enough for the inference. To claim that we can't infer something is designed without knowing who or what the designer is, is a bogus one. You can make that a requirement if you want, but it's as silly as a creationist claiming he has to see millions of years of evolution take place right in front of his eyes to accept it, that circumstantial evidence is not suffice it's.

It requires a great deal of denial and inconsistent reasoning on your part to make it work.

Seriously? Facepalm

Your 'reasoning' is totally suppositional. There is no evidence for a designer while burglars are known to exist.

There is no reason to believe there is design when there is no reason to believe there is a designer.

Evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of life.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2015, 08:36 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(09-06-2015 01:46 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 01:14 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Is it? Do you have a reference for that? I've seen a lot of conjectures but as this isn't a strong interest area I may have missed that.
I don't have one handy now. I'll bookmark this and get back with one.
Carl Woese's phylogenetic tree of life would seem to lend support the idea that all known life on earth evolves from a common ancestor.

That there are three main classifications or kingdoms which emerge from the common ancestor.

http://www.pnas.org/content/74/11/5088.full.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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10-06-2015, 09:20 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(10-06-2015 08:36 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Carl Woese's phylogenetic tree of life would seem to lend support the idea that all known life on earth evolves from a common ancestor.

That there are three main classifications or kingdoms which emerge from the common ancestor.

http://www.pnas.org/content/74/11/5088.full.

Interesting. I will have to read it again in depth since I'm not a biologist but I did note that there being single common ancestor seems to still be an open question.

Quote:The question that remains to be answered is whether the common ancestor of all three major lines of descent was itself a prokaryote. If not, each urkingdom represents an independent evolution of the prokaryotic level of organization. Obviously, much more needs to be known about the general properties of all the urkingdoms before this matter can be definitely settled. At present we can point to two arguments suggesting that each urkingdom does represent a separate evolution of the prokaryotic level of organization.

It makes sense to me that there could have been a first instance of a self-replicator that then overwhelmed any other early starts that may not have been as efficient. It also makes sense to me that there could have been multiple early beginnings that merged and/or competed with each other leaving only what looks like a single start.

The point is still that we know life started here so we know it is possible, at least under earth conditions. We don't have any way to judge how possible it is until we learn more about other worlds. Until then, any argument for a god based on life being unlikely is worthless.

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10-06-2015, 09:52 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
On the topic of burglars.
Burglars are human beings. We know human beings exist and we know what human beings are physically capable of.

We know houses can be broken into. We have examples of people breaking into houses and shot or arrested. We have evidence of all this activity.

Every detail of burglary can be documented and evidence examined. All of it is real.

There are no supernatural acts of burglary.

If someone tells me they were in a car accident , the surface story without any evidence known to me is plausible because all of the components of the story are real.

If they tell me that while driving, they hit Bigfoot or several leprechauns, the plausibility of the story plummets because an element of the story isn't real or hasn't been shown to exist.

An intelligent designer of the universe isn't plausible and hasn't been shown to exist, just like leprechauns

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11-06-2015, 05:51 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(10-06-2015 08:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your 'reasoning' is totally suppositional. There is no evidence for a designer while burglars are known to exist.

There is no reason to believe there is design when there is no reason to believe there is a designer.

Evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of life.

Why not streamline the burglar bit a little more. We know that intentionality is required for a robbery, we know that intentional acts occur. If we were to travel to some distant planet, and find artifacts, like vases, statues, we don't particularly need to know who the life forms are that created these items, we can tell by the items themselves that they were designed, created by intelligence. Who or what the intelligence forces are, are a different question than if something is product of intelligence or not. Typically when there are two sides on a question about whether something was purposeful, whether an act was intentional, the other side is not someone claiming you don't know who did it, so can't assume it was purposeful or intentional, the other side is one who argues the act was unintentional, or purposeless, coincidental etc...
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11-06-2015, 06:06 AM
If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
In order to claim a mechanism is responsible, you need to show the mechanism exists and logically connects to what you think is causal evidence from it.

Unless you're not here to actually discuss anything, tomasia. And are instead here just to preach your religious opinion?

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11-06-2015, 06:23 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 05:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 08:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your 'reasoning' is totally suppositional. There is no evidence for a designer while burglars are known to exist.

There is no reason to believe there is design when there is no reason to believe there is a designer.

Evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of life.

Why not streamline the burglar bit a little more. We know that intentionality is required for a robbery, we know that intentional acts occur. If we were to travel to some distant planet, and find artifacts, like vases, statues, we don't particularly need to know who the life forms are that created these items, we can tell by the items themselves that they were designed, created by intelligence. Who or what the intelligence forces are, are a different question than if something is product of intelligence or not. Typically when there are two sides on a question about whether something was purposeful, whether an act was intentional, the other side is not someone claiming you don't know who did it, so can't assume it was purposeful or intentional, the other side is one who argues the act was unintentional, or purposeless, coincidental etc...
What you are talking about are what generally considered tale tale signs of things of an artificial origin. I will grant that vases, statues and such can suggest the presence of intelligence. Because they do so here on earth. We can extrapolate on that basis.

Because instances of such a designer have previously been shown to exist.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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11-06-2015, 06:23 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 06:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  In order to claim a mechanism is responsible, you need to show the mechanism exists and logically connects to what you think is causal evidence from it.

I'm not too sure what you mean. In the analogy of inferring a robbery. Do I need to know how the thief was able to come into my house and take the items (mechanisms) to infer that I've been robbed? Or let's say in regards to ontological naturalism, would we have to know what the various mechanism that brought everything about, before we can hold this as true?

Do we have to know how Stonehenge, or the Pyramids were created, to infer that these items were designed?
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11-06-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
If we look at a statue and infer design, intention and know that human beings are capable of carving stone statues with a hammer and various chisels, then as we look at the designer, we see that he or she had natural origins. They were born into this world through natural biological means.

Nature precedes life.
Life procedes intelligence
Intelligence precedes design

If anyone has evidence to show that this order of events that ends up with a designed item can be different, I'm willing to listen.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-06-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 07:01 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If we look at a statue and infer design, intention and know that human beings are capable of carving stone statues with a hammer and various chisels, then as we look at the designer, we see that he or she had natural origins. They were born into this world through natural biological means.

Nature precedes life.
Life procedes intelligence
Intelligence precedes design

If anyone has evidence to show that this order of events that ends up with a designed item can be different, I'm willing to listen.

We can infer something was a product of intentionality, or intelligence without needing to infer that it was human intelligence or intentionality behind it.

All the world over inferred that we were the products of design, that only changed when we particularly acquired the means of presenting explanations of unintentional forces, features of non-design, purposelessness. Teleological claims and views are not rejected by questions of who are what the forces behind this are, but by presenting counter teleological perspectives.

To simply the position it would be an argument between teleological views vs ontological naturalism or materialism. One position is the default for you, and other is a default for me, you have reasons for holding one view over the other, as well as I. I can ask you to convince me that materialism is true, just as much as you can ask me to convince you the teleological perspectives on life are true. It's just a matter of which one of us wants to take the bait here.
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