If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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11-06-2015, 07:24 AM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2015 07:28 AM by Chas.)
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 05:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 08:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your 'reasoning' is totally suppositional. There is no evidence for a designer while burglars are known to exist.

There is no reason to believe there is design when there is no reason to believe there is a designer.

Evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of life.

Why not streamline the burglar bit a little more. We know that intentionality is required for a robbery, we know that intentional acts occur. If we were to travel to some distant planet, and find artifacts, like vases, statues, we don't particularly need to know who the life forms are that created these items, we can tell by the items themselves that they were designed, created by intelligence. Who or what the intelligence forces are, are a different question than if something is product of intelligence or not. Typically when there are two sides on a question about whether something was purposeful, whether an act was intentional, the other side is not someone claiming you don't know who did it, so can't assume it was purposeful or intentional, the other side is one who argues the act was unintentional, or purposeless, coincidental etc...

There is no evidence of design in nature.

The Old Man of the Mountain in New Hampshire - evidence of design?

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11-06-2015, 07:26 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence of design in nature.

What would evidence of design in nature look like for you?

Is there evidence that there is no design in nature?
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11-06-2015, 07:36 AM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2015 07:42 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  The Old Man of the Mountain in New Hampshire - evidence of design?

Let's say I had just finished a trip to Mt. Rushmore, saw the carving of the faces of the presidents, and on my drive back I see the Old Man of The Mountain in New Hampshire, and I assume since Mt. Rushmore was designed by human agents, the Old Man of the Mountain must have been designed by human agents too. How would you argue that this was not the case? Would you say look we know who was behind the Mt. Rushmore carvings, but since we don't know who was behind the Old Man of Mountain, we can't infer design?

You, probably wouldn't. What you would likely argue is how natural, unintentional, purposeless forces can produce vague but uncanny resemblances to faces, following the same sort of trajectories, and randomness behind every other banal rock formation. Or something along these lines, correct? It would be on the basis of how well you could sell me on this explanation, as to whether or not I'd end up agreeing with you, rejecting my original inference.
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11-06-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 07:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  The Old Man of the Mountain in New Hampshire - evidence of design?

Let's say I had just finished a trip to Mt. Rushmore, saw the carving of the faces of the presidents, and on my drive back I see the Old Man of The Mountain in New Hampshire, and I assume since Mt. Rushmore was designed by human agents, the Old Man of the Mountain must have been designed by human agents too. How would you argue that this was not the case? Would you say look we know who was behind the Mt. Rushmore carvings, but since we don't know who was behind the Old Man of Mountain, we can't infer design?

You, probably wouldn't. What you would likely argue is how natural, unintentional, purposeless forces can produce vague but uncanny resemblances to faces, following the same sort of trajectories, and randomness behind every other banal rock formation. Or something along these lines, correct? It would be on the basis of how well you could sell me on this explanation, as to whether or not I'd end up agreeing with you, rejecting my original inference.

The Old Man of the Mountain only looks like a face from a narrow angle of view, so it doesn't appear to be designed but is a random configuration.

You continue to utterly miss the point. There is no evidence of purposeful design in nature, so concluding that there is a designer is illogical.

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11-06-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 07:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence of design in nature.

What would evidence of design in nature look like for you?

Like nothing we have seen so far.

Quote:Is there evidence that there is no design in nature?

There is a mountain of evidence that there is not purposeful design in nature; just look at all the things that make no sense if designed.

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11-06-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Show me an intelligence that isn't natural, that didn't come from nature, that isn't part of the natural universe.

Just because we can design things doesn't mean that every natural thing is designed.

If 20,000 people walk single file through a forest, they will unintentionally create a walking trail through the forest. It wasn't made through any design or intention

Now if we take the same 20,000 with a leader, leading them through the forest with an intentional path that he or she wants to take, could you tell the difference between these two paths if they are nearly identical given the limitations of human travel and the desire to take the easiest pathway through terrain.

Evidence of design is something you can manufacture in your mind if that's what you're looking for.

Two paths, nearly identical but one is designed and the other happened naturally.

Which one is evidence of design ?

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11-06-2015, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2015 08:59 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 08:09 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Show me an intelligence that isn't natural, that didn't come from nature, that isn't part of the natural universe.

Just because we can design things doesn't mean that every natural thing is designed.

If 20,000 people walk single file through a forest, they will unintentionally create a walking trail through the forest. It wasn't made through any design or intention

Now if we take the same 20,000 with a leader, leading them through the forest with an intentional path that he or she wants to take, could you tell the difference between these two paths if they are nearly identical given the limitations of human travel and the desire to take the easiest pathway through terrain.

Evidence of design is something you can manufacture in your mind if that's what you're looking for.

Two paths, nearly identical but one is designed and the other happened naturally.

Which one is evidence of design ?

The question could be asked the other way too, which path was unintentionally created? The rules which apply to inferring that something is intentional apply to inferring it is unintentional as well. Appealing to ontological naturalism, or materialism, is equivalent to one who sees a path and claims it was an unintentional product, as opposed to an intentional path.

But we could likely look at a great deal of paths, by the way they are structured, and routed, etc.. and can possibly note which paths were unintentionally created, and which were intentionally created. The way we could just look at a rock formation like the Old Man of the Mountain and assume it was likely the product of unintentional process, while a carving like Mt. Rushmore was not.

You can claim the trail from nothingness producing matter, which can organize itself in such a way to create conscious self-aware creatures, who seek meaning, and moral distinctions, was purely unintentional, but others might not find your claim all that convincing. Perhaps to others this screams intention.
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11-06-2015, 09:04 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
When Europeans first appear in Africa. Bringing trinkets and goodies. The Africans right away know that these are designed. They had seen neither similar artefacts before, nor the Europeans, to know that they would design them.

The bottle falls on the bushman from the sky in the movie and he does not mistake it for something that occurs in nature.

How did they know? Intuition.

Symmetry plays a part. Apart from large celestial objects, most macro-size things are not symmetrical except for human or other "non-natural" intervention.

From that perspective one could be sympathetic to an argument that something could be designed because it is symmetrical.

But I feel that it is a view that can be readily dispelled with natural explanations.

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11-06-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 08:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can claim the trail from nothingness producing matter, which can organize itself in such a way to create conscious self-aware creatures, who seek meaning, and moral distinctions, was purely unintentional, but others might not find your claim all that convincing. Perhaps to others this screams intention.

You are making an argument from ignorance and personal incredulity.
You don't know, nor can you seemingly imagine, how those could be the result of natural processes so you infer design.

But there is no evidence of design, there is only evidence of natural processes.

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11-06-2015, 09:11 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 09:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are making an argument from ignorance and personal incredulity.
You don't know, nor can you seemingly imagine, how those could be the result of natural processes so you infer design.

But there is no evidence of design, there is only evidence of natural processes.

Is a claim, that the trail from nothingness producing matter, which can organize itself in such a way to create conscious self-aware creatures, who seek meaning, and moral distinctions, was purely unintentional, also an argument from ignorance and personal incredulity?

I'm wondering if the sword here works both ways, or only in relationship to appeals to intentionality?
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