If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-06-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 08:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 08:09 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Show me an intelligence that isn't natural, that didn't come from nature, that isn't part of the natural universe.

Just because we can design things doesn't mean that every natural thing is designed.

If 20,000 people walk single file through a forest, they will unintentionally create a walking trail through the forest. It wasn't made through any design or intention

Now if we take the same 20,000 with a leader, leading them through the forest with an intentional path that he or she wants to take, could you tell the difference between these two paths if they are nearly identical given the limitations of human travel and the desire to take the easiest pathway through terrain.

Evidence of design is something you can manufacture in your mind if that's what you're looking for.

Two paths, nearly identical but one is designed and the other happened naturally.

Which one is evidence of design ?

The question could be asked the other way too, which path was unintentionally created? The rules which apply to inferring that something is intentional apply to inferring it is unintentional as well. Appealing to ontological naturalism, or materialism, is equivalent to one who sees a path and claims it was an unintentional product, as opposed to an intentional path.

But we could likely look at a great deal of paths, by the way they are structured, and routed, etc.. and can possibly note which paths were unintentionally created, and which were intentionally created. The way we could just look at a rock formation like the Old Man of the Mountain and assume it was likely the product of unintentional process, while a carving like Mt. Rushmore was not.

You can claim the trail from nothingness producing matter, which can organize itself in such a way to create conscious self-aware creatures, who seek meaning, and moral distinctions, was purely unintentional, but others might not find your claim all that convincing. Perhaps to others this screams intention.

Problem is one side has to presuppose a designer for which there is no evidence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 09:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are making an argument from ignorance and personal incredulity.
You don't know, nor can you seemingly imagine, how those could be the result of natural processes so you infer design.

But there is no evidence of design, there is only evidence of natural processes.

Is a claim, that the trail from nothingness producing matter, which can organize itself in such a way to create conscious self-aware creatures, who seek meaning, and moral distinctions, was purely unintentional, also an argument from ignorance and personal incredulity?

I'm wondering if the sword here works both ways, or only in relationship to appeals to intentionality?

Do you still actually have trouble grasping what is and isn't a fallacy? Like seriously? Or will you never stop being incredulous in responses as you ask questions then often don't even bother dealing with the responses.

There's a difference from a claim and a claim saying, this seems intuitive to ME or I can't understand how THAT can be a correct claim.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
No by all means let's keep giving credit to something that there is no evidence for. Yea that's rational.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 09:42 AM
If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 07:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 07:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence of design in nature.

What would evidence of design in nature look like for you?

Is there evidence that there is no design in nature?

Step 1) evidence of designer

Step 2) evidence that logically connects said evidence to said designer

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2015 10:18 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 09:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Step 1) evidence of designer

Step 2) evidence that logically connects said evidence to said designer

Notice your steps are questions about the designer, rather than merely about design. It's the distinction between inferring a robbery, and who the robber is.

You seem to be suggesting that design cannot be inferred unless we know who designed the item? Yet we can infer a robbery without knowing who the robber is.

You seem to be suggesting that design cannot be inferred from the item itself?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 10:14 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 09:17 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you still actually have trouble grasping what is and isn't a fallacy? Like seriously? Or will you never stop being incredulous in responses as you ask questions then often don't even bother dealing with the responses.

There's a difference from a claim and a claim saying, this seems intuitive to ME or I can't understand how THAT can be a correct claim.

I think many of you operate with a seeming disconnect in which these basic inferences are drawn by your everyday person.

That theists and atheists are in some sense operating similarly.

If a theists is someone who infers that the Old Man of The Mountain was a product of intention, because he recognizes that objects like Mt. Rushmore are a product of intention, the atheists (or at least the materialist) is someone who infers that Mt. Rushmore was a product of unintentional forces, because he recognigizes the Old Man on the Mountain is a product of unintentional forces.

Do you think different rules should apply when assuming unintentional forces vs intentional forces? Do you believe one position should be held as a default while the other should not?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
There is a set of rocks in Northern Island called The Giants Causeway.

[Image: Giants-Causeway_AJP_7881.jpg]

[Image: Giants_Causeway_vue_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9rale.JPG]

These must have been made by man; right? Chiseled to make these octagon shapes? Because octagons don't happen in nature?

A legend surrounds these rocks.

According to legend, the columns are the remains of a causeway built by a giant. The story goes that the Irish giant Fionn mac Cumhaill (Finn MacCool), from the Fenian Cycle of Gaelic mythology, was challenged to a fight by the Scottish giant Benandonner. Fionn accepted the challenge and built the causeway across the North Channel so that the two giants could meet. In one version of the story, Fionn defeats Benandonner. In another, Fionn hides from Benandonner when he realises that his foe is much bigger than he. Fionn's wife, Oonagh, disguises Fionn as a baby and tucks him in a cradle. When Benandonner sees the size of the 'baby', he reckons that its father, Fionn, must be a giant among giants. He flees back to Scotland in fright, destroying the causeway behind him so that Fionn could not follow. Across the sea, there are identical basalt columns at Fingal's Cave on the Scottish isle of Staffa, and it is possible that the story was influenced by this.

Now, this is a natural occurrence. A result of an ancient volcanic activity, and mud. But ancient people couldn't fathom this idea. Instead they formed a story that seemed much more "plausible". (plausible?) And that story was that these pillars were created by sentient beings. But they were wrong.

This is also not the only place on the planet that has these occur. But if you where walking across the beach your first instinct my be who built this? What artist took the time to put this together.

(11-06-2015 09:04 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The bottle falls on the bushman from the sky in the movie and he does not mistake it for something that occurs in nature.

How did they know? Intuition.

If you remember from the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy." The bushmen couldn't tell what it was? They used if for everything except it's accule use. He also thought it was from the gods. He may have reacted the same conclusion if a Geode fell on him. He never would have seen one before but it is strange and unusual and not common. It's a matter of reasoning skills.

[Image: 123919427216807961EIhVqKHcc.jpg]

When I was a young boy my class took a tour of a Native American plantation. We learned about how they tanned deer. How they made colored paint from clay, and ancient cutting tools, from rocks.

[Image: 11571033_1.jpg?v=8CE824B72437440]

After I learned about these things. Every rock I found that fit in my hand I thought was an ancient cutting tool. I collected dozens of them. I couldn't tell the difference between a normal rock or a Native American artifact.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant's_Cau...structures

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 11:21 AM
If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(11-06-2015 10:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 09:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Step 1) evidence of designer

Step 2) evidence that logically connects said evidence to said designer

Notice your steps are questions about the designer, rather than merely about design. It's the distinction between inferring a robbery, and who the robber is.

You seem to be suggesting that design cannot be inferred unless we know who designed the item? Yet we can infer a robbery without knowing who the robber is.

You seem to be suggesting that design cannot be inferred from the item itself?

You can't infer anything is the result of a mechanism you can't prove is real.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
11-06-2015, 11:24 AM
If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Otherwise, I could look at a signal in a record (like geochemistry) that is non-random and say it is the result of anything I want.

The CO2 and temperature trend aren't directly related, it's aliens.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
But you don't seem to actually be trying to understand this. You seem committed to promoting your religious idea (through discreet preaching) at the expense of the explanations you're being given. Hmmmmmmm. I wonder....

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: