If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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13-06-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(12-06-2015 12:45 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(12-06-2015 11:43 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Commonsensei,

In a bare outline, how does one establish the presence of an intelligence or even just life, on a remote planet?

Why do I ask this?

From some of the arguments I have seen here, without taking sides, this would seem impossible without properly identifying and characterizing a putative alien. Is that correct?

Well that's the big question isn't. The Fermi Paradox.

But i'm not making the clam that I know for certain. That is the point of my statement. What can we use to distinguish between. Something complex man made and something complex nature made. The alien comment is just an extreme out there idea. Similar to your coke bottle statement. The "Watch on the beach" is often used as a statement of" We can see a watch on the beach and know it had a creator. A complex devise. So why can't we look at the complexity of life and see that had a divine creator."

Which is why i put the Joe Dirt image on the bottom. He thought it was a space rock. But in reality it was a frozen turd from a plane.

But a response to the question.
In a barest out line i can muster. The obverable universe it about 90bil light years wide. Filled with ruffly 100bil Galaxies, each filled with 1tril stars. With a indeterminable amount of planets revolving around them. The universe is about 14 billion years old. Our solar system is about 4.5 billion years old. and life on out planet (from the earliset fossils) would be 3 billion years.

We have found life on this planet that can come out of the most unpredictable places. Weather it be the deepest part of the ocean, with standing 9000lbs of pressure. As well as a animal called the Tardigrade able to survive in absolute zero temperatures, ionizing radiation, boiling water and the vacuum of outer space. They can also survive up to 10 years without food or water.

Now statistically, with these numbers all in mind. What do you think the chances are that life can only come about once?

Usually where there's water there is life. We'll find out how this plays out when we get a prob to Europa. Now as far as intelligence life goes. I feel that statistically it's out there. I just don't think it ever visited us.
Points noted. Probability however could work either way.

In establishing such a fact, i.e. the intelligence on an alien world with only artefacts given, it's a judgment call.

That does not violate the principles of science, if you subscribe to the view that the scientific method is a tool, if a damn good one, and not your boss.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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14-06-2015, 06:48 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(12-06-2015 11:07 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I would have to disagree with you there. Ancient people came up with stories all the time about how things got the way they are.
How the star's were arrange by the gods to honor fallen heroes, or beast of legend.

How things went missing because a gnome or elf stole it.

Heck you may have even heard of many origin story's such the one with the talking snake and the forbidden fruit in the magic garden.

Just because ancient people came up with stories, that involved creation, lighting, or even the origins of the name of wells, etc, doesn't mean these stories were attempts to answer some supposed archaic curiosity about how things arose. I know this is a common canard, but it's entirely anachronistic reimagining of our own modern and privileged curiosities as universal. While modern believers, with the rise of the scientific age might reimagine there religious myths a bit different as result of our climate, this is problematic, and raises a number of questions that typically get ignored, when read back into the past.

While claiming these stories were to explain to these early communities how life of arose, or why these stones were formed the way they are, might make convenient explanations, they tend to be very inaccurate readings.

Quote:Yes. I would say that this would be man made. My father, brothers, and I have made a very similar one at my parents backyard.

The picture I showed provided no real context as to what it was of, it was just a formation of rocks like every other picture, but something about the way the rocks were formed led you to believe it was man made, or intelligently created, distinct from the natural formations, a patio, unlike the other formations that may have resembled patios to some extent, but were not.

If someone showed you the patio picture, claiming it was a naturally formed rock formation, you'd know he was pulling your leg, because nature doesn't particularly form rocks in such a way. While nature might make vaguely resembling patios, but not this particular order and formation. If we found this sort of formation in the middle of nowhere, attached to no particularly dwelling, or possessing patio furniture, we'd know just by looking it at, that it was a man made formation, and not a naturally occurring one, which we might suspects in regards to the other ones.

Of course we could make such assumptions and be entirely wrong of course. We could make them quite confidently, and sometimes quasi-confidently. And it seems much easier to fool us into thinking man made things are natural, rather than natural things are man made. (I should say all this is not so much about the accuracy of these inferences, but rather in regards to how such inferences are drawn in the first place, and the commonality between correct and incorrect inferences here)

Quote:(On a side note. If you took the picture. Did you make it? It's very nice. )

I wish I was that talented, but no. lol.
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14-06-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
MIstaken identity.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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14-06-2015, 11:59 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If someone showed you the patio picture, claiming it was a naturally formed rock formation, you'd know he was pulling your leg, because nature doesn't particularly form rocks in such a way.

When I tell you this was not the result of any intent but is a naturally formed rock track do you think I'm pulling your leg? I mean nature doesn't particularly drag rocks around a flat desert willy nilly.

[Image: rock-1.jpg]

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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14-06-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 11:59 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  When I tell you this was not the result of any intent but is a naturally formed rock track do you think I'm pulling your leg? I mean nature doesn't particularly drag rocks around a flat desert willy nilly.

[Image: rock-1.jpg]


No, I wouldn't think you were pulling my leg.

When I tell you this was not the result of intent, but arose naturally, would you think I was pulling your leg:

[Image: 191_04.jpg]
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14-06-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 12:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-06-2015 11:59 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  When I tell you this was not the result of any intent but is a naturally formed rock track do you think I'm pulling your leg? I mean nature doesn't particularly drag rocks around a flat desert willy nilly.

[Image: rock-1.jpg]


No, I wouldn't think you were pulling my leg.

When I tell you this was not the result of intent, but arose naturally, would you think I was pulling your leg:

[Image: 191_04.jpg]

What is your point? What is it that you think is designed that a naturalist does not?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2015, 03:09 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-06-2015 12:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I wouldn't think you were pulling my leg.

When I tell you this was not the result of intent, but arose naturally, would you think I was pulling your leg:

[Image: 191_04.jpg]

What is your point? What is it that you think is designed that a naturalist does not?

We can see that a garden is designed therefore we are perfectly able to determine what is designed by a designer and what is not, therefore I can tell that life itself is designed because I cannot conceive of it being otherwise therefore Jesus therefore I'm not going to actually *end* when I die but will go to magical fairy land and play the harp for an invisible super being who will let me do so because he is pleased by my kowtowing to him while I was alive.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-06-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 12:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-06-2015 11:59 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  When I tell you this was not the result of any intent but is a naturally formed rock track do you think I'm pulling your leg? I mean nature doesn't particularly drag rocks around a flat desert willy nilly.

[Image: rock-1.jpg]


No, I wouldn't think you were pulling my leg.

When I tell you this was not the result of intent, but arose naturally, would you think I was pulling your leg:

[Image: 191_04.jpg]
I would be biased towards that garden being designed. If you remove the two ladies, perhaps less so.

If your point is that we often have to make judgment calls without enough information, and that it is not necessarily crazy to do so, I think that would be a fair observation.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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14-06-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 04:42 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I would be biased towards that garden being designed. If you remove the two ladies, perhaps less so.

If your point is that we often have to make judgment calls without enough information, and that it is not necessarily crazy to do so, I think that would be a fair observation.


The garden has straight paths and square corners. I believe straight lines do not exist in nature. Am I right?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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14-06-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 04:55 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(14-06-2015 04:42 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I would be biased towards that garden being designed. If you remove the two ladies, perhaps less so.

If your point is that we often have to make judgment calls without enough information, and that it is not necessarily crazy to do so, I think that would be a fair observation.


The garden has straight paths and square corners. I believe straight lines do not exist in nature. Am I right?

They do, they're just not common.

[Image: 0cce9115db3f.jpg]

[Image: e91992f73724.jpg]

[Image: f44510f6b283.jpg]

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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