If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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14-06-2015, 05:11 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 04:55 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(14-06-2015 04:42 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I would be biased towards that garden being designed. If you remove the two ladies, perhaps less so.

If your point is that we often have to make judgment calls without enough information, and that it is not necessarily crazy to do so, I think that would be a fair observation.


The garden has straight paths and square corners. I believe straight lines do not exist in nature. Am I right?
If I understand you to mean, not man-made, indeed they do. I have seen examples on this thread.

I know they are natural, because the author points it out. In other cases, because their utility to people is not readily apparent.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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14-06-2015, 06:33 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
How about square corners?

Chaz your images wont load.

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14-06-2015, 06:44 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 06:33 PM)Banjo Wrote:  How about square corners?

Chaz your images wont load.

They load for me. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2015, 06:52 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Hmmm. I have no idea. Oh well.

How about square corners? You'd know about that. I mean really square, not square-ish.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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14-06-2015, 07:01 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 06:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Hmmm. I have no idea. Oh well.

How about square corners? You'd know about that. I mean really square, not square-ish.

Crystals.

[Image: OKC-577.jpg]

[Image: BismuthCrystal_big.jpg]

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2015, 07:02 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Thanks Chaz! Big Grin

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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15-06-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(14-06-2015 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  What is your point? What is it that you think is designed that a naturalist does not?

Well the main point, is to combat the accusation that one needs to know who or what designed something to infer design. We can look at a picture of a stone structure, without knowing much of anything else and infer design.

My secondary points would be that this process, is to great deal intuitively inferred, hence why when we try to articulate why we assume certain rock formations are designed we have a hard time articulating those reasons. These intuitions are shaped by our collective perceptions of designed and non-designed things.

In fact when we see those naturally formed rock formations presented here, those square crystals, or those trails created by sailing stones, the images are jarring, in way that looking upon other natural items, like mundane rocks, and mounds of sand don't. There's something that clicks in assuming these items are created intentionally, even though they are not.

What I always found interesting among a sort of diehard atheists is a sort of downplaying and denial of this basic human intuitions, and this sense of jarringness . The seem consciously aware of it, when presented with rock formations, in those that are naturally created, but strickingly so. But attempt to seemingly deny the jarringness of matter organizing itself in such a way to produce conscious, self aware creatures, with moral intuitions, and creative capacities,.

While they may believe this a natural, and unintentional process like sailing stones, they seem unable to relate, or recognize why others don’t particularly find this all that believable, that sense of absurdity in regards to ontological naturalism, which should be entirely understandable. But this often gets downplayed or denied, for no other apparent reasons, then perhaps ideological commitments.
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15-06-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(15-06-2015 10:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-06-2015 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  What is your point? What is it that you think is designed that a naturalist does not?

Well the main point, is to combat the accusation that one needs to know who or what designed something to infer design. We can look at a picture of a stone structure, without knowing much of anything else and infer design.

My secondary points would be that this process, is to great deal intuitively inferred, hence why when we try to articulate why we assume certain rock formations are designed we have a hard time articulating those reasons. These intuitions are shaped by our collective perceptions of designed and non-designed things.

In fact when we see those naturally formed rock formations presented here, those square crystals, or those trails created by sailing stones, the images are jarring, in way that looking upon other natural items, like mundane rocks, and mounds of sand don't. There's something that clicks in assuming these items are created intentionally, even though they are not.

What I always found interesting among a sort of diehard atheists is a sort of downplaying and denial of this basic human intuitions, and this sense of jarringness . The seem consciously aware of it, when presented with rock formations, in those that are naturally created, but strickingly so. But attempt to seemingly deny the jarringness of matter organizing itself in such a way to produce conscious, self aware creatures, with moral intuitions, and creative capacities,.

While they may believe this a natural, and unintentional process like sailing stones, they seem unable to relate, or recognize why others don’t particularly find this all that believable, that sense of absurdity in regards to ontological naturalism, which should be entirely understandable. But this often gets downplayed or denied, for no other apparent reasons, then perhaps ideological commitments.

I follow what you are saying but it also exposes the fallacy of your argument as an argument from incredulity. "I can't imagine how that could possibly not be the result of intentional design hence it must be designed." "How do you know?" "Because it just looks that way." It's not a valid argument.

#sigh
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15-06-2015, 07:36 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Tomasia - when you infer design you do in fact have to know something about the capability of the designer. You first have to know that the kind of designer with the capability to do such a thing, actually exists and that the design couldn't have happened naturally.

That last part is very important. It couldn't have happened naturally.

The only designers we know of exist on this planet and the designers on this planet were produced by natural means. Each of us born from the union of our parents and that natural process extends back through a billion years or more in evolution.

If we find a large city in ruins on some distant moon of Jupiter we can infer that this was designed by some other intelligent life form and couldn't have come into existence naturally.

We can know something about the designer and it's capabilities because we know what we are capable of doing and it's easy to imagine another life form existing with similar capabilities.

When you want to infer that a designer had been designed by some other designer, then you can also ask who designed that designer and the question gets passed down through infinite designers.

That's when you have to come back to the table and ask yourself "Given all the evidence , wouldn't it seem more likely that our species arose on this planet through a natural process rather than one of infinite designers ?"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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15-06-2015, 11:57 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(15-06-2015 05:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I follow what you are saying but it also exposes the fallacy of your argument as an argument from incredulity. "I can't imagine how that could possibly not be the result of intentional design hence it must be designed." "How do you know?" "Because it just looks that way." It's not a valid argument.

If you can clothe it in enough verbiage you can conceal it's argumental shittiness from the average christian who wants to believe you already and wants some kind of justification to shore up his or her weak faith. I mean what kind of Holy Joe validates his faith by arguing with atheists in the first place? I'd think he'd spend more time on his knees communing with the void with more fruitful results.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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