If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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16-06-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(15-06-2015 07:36 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Tomasia - when you infer design you do in fact have to know something about the capability of the designer. You first have to know that the kind of designer with the capability to do such a thing, actually exists and that the design couldn't have happened naturally.

That last part is very important. It couldn't have happened naturally.

I don't have to know this. You want this to be a rule, a requirement, but when in fact it's not. You don't have to know anything about the intentional agents to infer intention, just like you don't have to know the exact unintentional forces behind something to infer that something was intentional.

You seem to want to apply a different set of rules when inferring unintentionality, as opposed to intentionality, without recognizing this would be analogous to applying a different rule to inferring something is black, rather than white. The rules would have to be the same, or else we're just highlighting our confirmation bias. A matter of placing more weight, setting as a default ones own ideological commitments, than anything else.

Several years ago we had those unexplained crop circles, everyone seemed to able to infer that these circles were intentionally produced. No one believed they were unintentional, even though hardly anyone knew how they were formed, or what forces were behind it. Some believed it was aliens. Even though they were wrong about this, it had no effect on their initial inference that these circles where intentional.

I can recognize that my house was robbed, without knowing anything about who robbed it. Recognizing the robbery, just like the intentionality of the crop circles, doesn't require me to hold that it was human agents behind these things.

Let's say a man won a several million dollar lottery three times straight. Most people would infer that the lottery system was rigged to produce this result, rather than it just being a fluke, even though none of them know how it was rigged. They still recognize that it was intentional.

A man with a differing view would be one, who believes this was unintentional, that it was just a fluke, that he was a just the recipient of some astronomical odds. He's offered an unintentional explanation. And while those who believe it was intentional are not able to rule this explanation out, they hardly would find it all that believable.
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16-06-2015, 06:51 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(15-06-2015 05:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I follow what you are saying but it also exposes the fallacy of your argument as an argument from incredulity. "I can't imagine how that could possibly not be the result of intentional design hence it must be designed." "How do you know?" "Because it just looks that way." It's not a valid argument.

What's your argument that matter organizing itself in such a way to produce conscious, self aware creatures, with moral intuitions, and creative capacities, was unintentional?

How do you know it was?

Because it just looks that way is not a valid argument.

Nor is:

"We don't know who or what those intentional forces are, therefore we can't assume intentionality, and therefore we must default to accepting it was unintentional "

Nor is:

"It just did."

What you might not recognize is that, it's not a matter of the "not knowing". The question of knowing here is related to the who or what was behind it, and how exactly they did it. Like who robbed my house, and how they managed to do it, are not one and the same with inferring my house was robbed.

An honest unbeliever is left with only one particular answer, that it was just a fluke, while a believer is one not particularly persuaded that it was. A believer is one who doesn't find the arguments for it being a fluke all that persuasive.
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16-06-2015, 07:00 AM
If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
Life is matter arranged in a way that is conscious. Period.

Life is redox chemistry. You descend from chemistry. It's pretty simple.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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16-06-2015, 07:15 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 07:00 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Life is matter arranged in a way that is conscious. Period.

Life is redox chemistry. You descend from chemistry. It's pretty simple.

Or in other words "it just did".
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16-06-2015, 07:17 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 07:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 07:00 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Life is matter arranged in a way that is conscious. Period.

Life is redox chemistry. You descend from chemistry. It's pretty simple.

Or in other words "it just did".

You are matter. You are conscious. It is pretty simple.

You do realize that not all life appears to be conscious, right? Consciousness is not a requirement for something to be life.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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16-06-2015, 07:21 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
It is even simpler when it comes to the idea of intelligent design.

Step 1) prove the designer exists

Step 2) find evidence of design from the designer that logically connects said evidence to said designer

You can't find evidence of something (your explanatory cause) without evidence that the cause exists. Otherwise you could claim that anything from your imagination is capable of explaining your "evidence" for it.

Or to put it another way, scientific explanations can't work without mechanisms that can be demonstrated plausible.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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16-06-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 06:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What's your argument that matter organizing itself in such a way to produce conscious, self aware creatures, with moral intuitions, and creative capacities, was unintentional?

And no you've just gone full circle to the starting point "What is your argument there is no god?" That's a misplaced burden of proof.

#sigh
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16-06-2015, 07:33 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You are matter. You are conscious. It is pretty simple.

You do realize that not all life appears to be conscious, right? Consciousness is not a requirement for something to be life.

An arrangement of matter doesn't require consciousness, nor does an arrangement of matter that constitutes as life, require consciousness either. It could of just produced a bunch of zombies, but didn't. Why does matter have the qualities to arrange itself in such away to produce, conscious, self aware creatures, with moral intuitions, and creative capacities?

Your answer is basically: "It just does. It doesn't have to have this capacity, it just did. It didn't have to be able to produce anything other than zombies, but it just did. And that matter having this capacity is purely unintentional, it didn't have to have these capacities, it just does."
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16-06-2015, 07:37 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You are matter. You are conscious. It is pretty simple.

You do realize that not all life appears to be conscious, right? Consciousness is not a requirement for something to be life.

An arrangement of matter doesn't require consciousness, nor does an arrangement of matter that constitutes as life, require consciousness either. It could of just produced a bunch of zombies, but didn't. Why does matter have the qualities to arrange itself in such away to produce, conscious, self aware creatures, with moral intuitions, and creative capacities?

Your answer is basically: "It just does. It doesn't have to have this capacity, it just did. It didn't have to be able to produce anything other than zombies, but it just did. And that matter having this capacity is purely unintentional, it didn't have to have these capacities, it just does."

And the halides just taste salty. Calcite just double refracts light creating a hologram. Carbonates just neutralize acid. The Earth just rotates around the sun. (nothing is "just" anything. Your reductionist straw man is idiotic)

Consciousness is an emergent property of SOME of the living things on this planet. Your inability to comprehend or accept reality, is on you and doesn't diminish reality.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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16-06-2015, 07:37 AM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 07:29 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And no you've just gone full circle to the starting point "What is your argument there is no god?" That's a misplaced burden of proof.

No, it's not a misplaced burden of proof. Claiming that something was unintentional, a fluke is just as much a positive argument as claiming it was intentional.

It's one positive claim vs. another alternative positive claim.
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