If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
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16-06-2015, 12:09 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 12:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 11:54 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your stuff being missing, does not in and of itself mean you've been robbed. Observing someone robbing you, or a confession, or them being caught with evidence linking them to it, would mean you've been robbed.

I come home one day, find my tv gone, my wife's jewelry missing, as well as a variety of other valuables, and the window wide open.

You're saying I can't conclude from this that I've been robbed? What should I take this all to mean then?

Quote:Habeas corpus mean anything to you?

Sure, but it seems that it would only mean something if I were attributing this to a particular person.

Quote:How do you know any attributes of your god when none has ever been observed?

Observed by you, you mean. To me, my life is filled with an over abundance of these observations. Observations that flood me with a perception that life signifies something. The question of God, and the question of meaning are one and the same to me, though for you they appear as two distinct questions, that you can't see the relationship between the two.

"You're saying I can't conclude from this that I've been robbed? What should I take this all to mean then? "

If you don't know robbers exist, you don't know that they have robbed you. All you know is your shit is gone. By your logic, you could just as easily argue it was abducted.

"Sure, but it seems that it would only mean something if I were attributing this to a particular person. "

You are, you just don't know who you are applying it to. Kind of hard to prove someone did it, when you have no evidence that they did it. Funny how that works, no?

"Observed by you, you mean. To me, my life is filled with an over abundance of these observations. Observations that flood me with a perception that life signifies something. The question of God, and the question of meaning are one and the same to me, though for you they appear as two distinct questions, that you can't see the relationship between the two."

My question was rhetorical, I could not fucking care less what you think is evidence for your imaginary friend.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-06-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 12:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If you don't know robbers exist, you don't know that they have robbed you. All you know is your shit is gone. By your logic, you could just as easily argue it was abducted.

I’m not sure what the difference between inferring that my items have been robbed vs. abducted would be, other than a poor word choice?

But what is it that I need to know to infer a robbery? Do I need to believe that only human beings are capable of robbing? Or can I know that only intentional agents are capable of robbing? Can I know that I’ve been robbed, and yet not know the intentional agents behind it are human or not? Alien or not? Can I know those crop circles were intentionally created, and yet not know if the intentional agents behind it were human or aliens?

Quote:You are, you just don't know who you are applying it to. Kind of hard to prove someone did it, when you have no evidence that they did it. Funny how that works, no?

But, it’s not to hard to show that I’ve been robbed, without proving, or showing who exactly robbed me. As with many robberies the culprit might continue to remain unknown. Even though it remains unknown, this doesn’t particularly cast any doubt on the observation that i’ve been robbed.

Quote:My question was rhetorical, I could not fucking care less what you think is evidence for your imaginary friend.

Apparently you care enough to get quite worked up over it, lol.
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16-06-2015, 01:33 PM
If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 01:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 12:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If you don't know robbers exist, you don't know that they have robbed you. All you know is your shit is gone. By your logic, you could just as easily argue it was abducted.

I’m not sure what the difference between inferring that my items have been robbed vs. abducted would be, other than a poor word choice?

But what is it that I need to know to infer a robbery? Do I need to believe that only human beings are capable of robbing? Or can I know that only intentional agents are capable of robbing? Can I know that I’ve been robbed, and yet not know the intentional agents behind it are human or not? Alien or not? Can I know those crop circles were intentionally created, and yet not know if the intentional agents behind it were human or aliens?

Quote:You are, you just don't know who you are applying it to. Kind of hard to prove someone did it, when you have no evidence that they did it. Funny how that works, no?

But, it’s not to hard to show that I’ve been robbed, without proving, or showing who exactly robbed me. As with many robberies the culprit might continue to remain unknown. Even though it remains unknown, this doesn’t particularly cast any doubt on the observation that i’ve been robbed.

Quote:My question was rhetorical, I could not fucking care less what you think is evidence for your imaginary friend.

Apparently you care enough to get quite worked up over it, lol.

Inferring something happened does not mean (by default) you can conclude only from the circumstantial evidence the cause. You could fake the robbery as an insurance scam. You need to actually show the link between your evidence and your claimed cause.

You've picked an event that can't happen without life, your hypothetical scenario in no way imitates the universe or life's origins. Your example and your refusal to see its idiocy, is sad.

As for getting me "worked up" over your imaginary friend, unless you've some insight into my emotions I don't, I've no idea what you're talking about. Your God explanations are the last excuses your weak closed mind has left to go.

Odin bless you, you poor dumb fool.

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16-06-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 01:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Inferring something happened does not mean (by default) you can conclude only from the circumstantial evidence the cause. You could fake the robbery as an insurance scam. You need to actually show the link between your evidence and your claimed cause.

You mean to my insurance company? To some third party other than myself, who might question if I faked it? I don't particularly have to question if I faked the robbery or not.

Quote:You've picked an event that can't happen without life

I picked an event that can't happen without intentionality.

Quote:your hypothetical scenario in no way imitates the universe or life's origins. Your example and your refusal to see its idiocy, is sad.

The question is related to how we infer something is intentional vs unintentional. There's no particular wall that prevents us from drawing similar inferences about human existence, the universe, or anything else for that matter.

Quote:As for getting me "worked up" over your imaginary friend, unless you've some insight into my emotions I don't, I've no idea what you're talking about. Your God explanations are the last excuses your weak closed mind has left to go.

Odin bless you, you poor dumb fool.

It's not particularly hard to see your petty resentments, but if you want to imagine this is all hidden from view here, by all means pretend if you like. When a man has to sink to a series of ad hominem attacks, it doesn't require you to be a rocket scientist to recognize he's a bit worked up.

I guess the question is, are you trying to work me up as well? Are you deliberately trying to provoke my ire? Or do you prefer that I stay calm, and ignore your personal attacks?
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16-06-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 01:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 01:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Inferring something happened does not mean (by default) you can conclude only from the circumstantial evidence the cause. You could fake the robbery as an insurance scam. You need to actually show the link between your evidence and your claimed cause.

You mean to my insurance company? To some third party other than myself, who might question if I faked it? I don't particularly have to question if I faked the robbery or not.

Quote:You've picked an event that can't happen without life

I picked an event that can't happen without intentionality.

Quote:your hypothetical scenario in no way imitates the universe or life's origins. Your example and your refusal to see its idiocy, is sad.

The question is related to how we infer something is intentional vs unintentional. There's no particular wall that prevents us from drawing similar inferences about human existence, the universe, or anything else for that matter.

Quote:As for getting me "worked up" over your imaginary friend, unless you've some insight into my emotions I don't, I've no idea what you're talking about. Your God explanations are the last excuses your weak closed mind has left to go.

Odin bless you, you poor dumb fool.

It's not particularly hard to see your petty resentments, but if you want to imagine this is all hidden from view here, by all means pretend if you like. When a man has to sink to a series of ad hominem attacks, it doesn't require you to be a rocket scientist to recognize he's a bit worked up.

I guess the question is, are you trying to work me up as well? Are you deliberately trying to provoke my ire? Or do you prefer that I stay calm, and ignore your personal attacks?

"I don't particularly have to question if I faked the robbery or not. "

Which is why there is nothing scientifically consistent about your logic. You being convinced of something, means precisely jack shit when it comes to proving it.

"I picked an event that can't happen without intentionality. "

Now you are just being a dumbass. Intention implies the existence of a being that is consciously committing the crime you call robbery. A robbery (by definition) is an act committed by a person. You aren't just comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing bananas to chimpanzees.

"The question is related to how we infer something is intentional vs unintentional. There's no particular wall that prevents us from drawing similar inferences about human existence, the universe, or anything else for that matter. "

Unless you can prove intent (that is your claim, not science's), it is stupid to think there is intent.

Until you prove that the thing that has intent exists, it is not only illogical, it is inseparable from your imagination. And in your imagination dwells stories and fantasies. Some of us prefer external truths instead of internally comforting stories.

"I guess the question is, are you trying to work me up as well? Are you deliberately trying to provoke my ire? Or do you prefer that I stay calm, and ignore your personal attacks?"

I could not care less what you think of the ad homs or slights against your imaginary friend. Your emotional state is of no concern to me. You have quite the arrogant view of yourself, don't you?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-06-2015, 03:20 PM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2015 03:23 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 02:03 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Which is why there is nothing scientifically consistent about your logic. You being convinced of something, means precisely jack shit when it comes to proving it.

Well, me being convinced that I was robbed is all that’s required to infer that I’ve been robbed. My friends might be convinced by my word alone, by believing that I am an honest person. My insurance company would likely require that I filed a police report, and would reimburse me for my items as if they were in fact stolen property. Insurance companies don’t typically go through all the trouble of questioning whether I was engaging in insurance fraud, particularly when it comes to averaged size insurance claims, for those with a lack of repeated incidents. Unless there’s a particular red flag, they’ll likely accept the claim with a quick inspection of the property, and the police report. I’m not the one that would have to rule out that I committed a fraud, they’re the ones that would have to prove that it was fraud.

Their threshold to recognize that I’ve been robbed, is likely to be as low as my own.

Quote:Now you are just being a dumbass. Intention implies the existence of a being that is consciously committing the crime you call robbery. [quote]

Yes, intention implies the existence of intentional agents. It doesn’t require that we know who exactly those intentional agents are, or require that we believe they are human.

[quote]A robbery (by definition) is an act committed by a person.

No, a robber doesn’t have to be a person. If this was the case we couldn’t call Sly Cooper a thief, since he’s a raccoon. It’s only defined in such a way by some dictionaries, because hardly no one goes around claiming they were robbed other than by some other human being, while the term abduction on other hand does not attach the “committed by a person” to it’s definition. Robbery doesn't require the act to be committed by a person, anymore so than abduction does (alien abductions).

Quote:Until you prove that the thing that has intent exists, it is not only illogical, it is inseparable from your imagination

Does the opposite also follow: That you can’t appeal to unintentional forces unless you know what those exact forces are? That if you make such appeals without this, it would be illogical, and inseparable from your imagination. Or does his rule of yours only apply when we appeal to intentional forces, rather than unintentional ones?

Quote:I could not care less what you think of the ad homs or slights against your imaginary friend. Your emotional state is of no concern to me. You have quite the arrogant view of yourself, don't you?

I could care less about what you have to say about God, I'm talking about when you direct those attacks towards me. If you say you're going to continue with those ad hominem attacks, and don't give a shit if it pisses me off, than go ahead and just say it. Be as confident as you want over a computer screen. I'm not being arrogant. I just want to know if you're intentionally trying to piss me off, or just doing so unintentionally with your ad hominem attacks.
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16-06-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 03:20 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well, me being convinced that I was robbed is all that’s required to infer that I’ve been robbed.
It seems that you being convinced that you were created is all it takes for you to infer a creator.

Quote:I’m not the one that would have to rule out that I committed a fraud, they’re the ones that would have to prove that it was fraud.
Oh I see, so now we have to prove no God right? Because we're the great big atheist insurance company who doubt the tale spun by the religious. Where's your God, Tommy? Why doesn't he answer calls?

Quote:Yes, intention implies the existence of intentional agents. It doesn’t require that we know who exactly those intentional agents are, or require that we believe they are human.
You mean, you infer intent, and *then* infer agents.

Quote:I could care less about what you have to say about God, I'm talking about when you direct those attacks towards me. If you say you're going to continue with those ad hominem attacks, and don't give a shit if it pisses me off, than go ahead and just say it. Be as confident as you want over a computer screen. I'm not being arrogant. I just want to know if you're intentionally trying to piss me off, or just doing so unintentionally with your ad hominem attacks.
Rolleyes

Nice going Tommy, you're really defending the faith pretty well here Thumbsup

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-06-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 12:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I come home one day, find my tv gone, my wife's jewelry missing, as well as a variety of other valuables, and the window wide open.

You're saying I can't conclude from this that I've been robbed? What should I take this all to mean then?

1) Your wife got tired of your bullshit and ran away with her hairdresser.
2) You didn't make the payments and repo man caught up with you.
3) Your dog ate them.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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16-06-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 03:20 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 02:03 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Which is why there is nothing scientifically consistent about your logic. You being convinced of something, means precisely jack shit when it comes to proving it.

Well, me being convinced that I was robbed is all that’s required to infer that I’ve been robbed. My friends might be convinced by my word alone, by believing that I am an honest person. My insurance company would likely require that I filed a police report, and would reimburse me for my items as if they were in fact stolen property. Insurance companies don’t typically go through all the trouble of questioning whether I was engaging in insurance fraud, particularly when it comes to averaged size insurance claims, for those with a lack of repeated incidents. Unless there’s a particular red flag, they’ll likely accept the claim with a quick inspection of the property, and the police report. I’m not the one that would have to rule out that I committed a fraud, they’re the ones that would have to prove that it was fraud.

Their threshold to recognize that I’ve been robbed, is likely to be as low as my own.

Quote:Now you are just being a dumbass. Intention implies the existence of a being that is consciously committing the crime you call robbery. [quote]

Yes, intention implies the existence of intentional agents. It doesn’t require that we know who exactly those intentional agents are, or require that we believe they are human.

[quote]A robbery (by definition) is an act committed by a person.

No, a robber doesn’t have to be a person. If this was the case we couldn’t call Sly Cooper a thief, since he’s a raccoon. It’s only defined in such a way by some dictionaries, because hardly no one goes around claiming they were robbed other than by some other human being, while the term abduction on other hand does not attach the “committed by a person” to it’s definition. Robbery doesn't require the act to be committed by a person, anymore so than abduction does (alien abductions).

Quote:Until you prove that the thing that has intent exists, it is not only illogical, it is inseparable from your imagination

Does the opposite also follow: That you can’t appeal to unintentional forces unless you know what those exact forces are? That if you make such appeals without this, it would be illogical, and inseparable from your imagination. Or does his rule of yours only apply when we appeal to intentional forces, rather than unintentional ones?

Quote:I could not care less what you think of the ad homs or slights against your imaginary friend. Your emotional state is of no concern to me. You have quite the arrogant view of yourself, don't you?

I could care less about what you have to say about God, I'm talking about when you direct those attacks towards me. If you say you're going to continue with those ad hominem attacks, and don't give a shit if it pisses me off, than go ahead and just say it. Be as confident as you want over a computer screen. I'm not being arrogant. I just want to know if you're intentionally trying to piss me off, or just doing so unintentionally with your ad hominem attacks.

"Well, me being convinced that I was robbed is all that’s required to infer that I’ve been robbed. My friends might be convinced by my word alone, by believing that I am an honest person. My insurance company would likely require that I filed a police report, and would reimburse me for my items as if they were in fact stolen property. Insurance companies don’t typically go through all the trouble of questioning whether I was engaging in insurance fraud, particularly when it comes to averaged size insurance claims, for those with a lack of repeated incidents. Unless there’s a particular red flag, they’ll likely accept the claim with a quick inspection of the property, and the police report. I’m not the one that would have to rule out that I committed a fraud, they’re the ones that would have to prove that it was fraud. "

What it takes to convince you of something, is pointless. You being convinced of something as true, doesn't tell me anything about whether or not it is or isn't true (plenty of people believe homeopathy works and vaccines are harmful, they are dumbasses).

"No, a robber doesn’t have to be a person. If this was the case we couldn’t call Sly Cooper a thief, since he’s a raccoon. It’s only defined in such a way by some dictionaries, because hardly no one goes around claiming they were robbed other than by some other human being, while the term abduction on other hand does not attach the “committed by a person” to it’s definition. Robbery doesn't require the act to be committed by a person, anymore so than abduction does (alien abductions). "

The fact that you are using a fictional character to defend your asinine argument, is deliciously ironic.

"Does the opposite also follow: That you can’t appeal to unintentional forces unless you know what those exact forces are? That if you make such appeals without this, it would be illogical, and inseparable from your imagination. Or does his rule of yours only apply when we appeal to intentional forces, rather than unintentional ones? "

We can and do observe the forces of nature working. And they are independently verifiable so as to suggest that they are externally true. Your god is only internally true, making it a figment of your imagination.

"I could care less about what you have to say about God, I'm talking about when you direct those attacks towards me. If you say you're going to continue with those ad hominem attacks, and don't give a shit if it pisses me off, than go ahead and just say it. Be as confident as you want over a computer screen. I'm not being arrogant. I just want to know if you're intentionally trying to piss me off, or just doing so unintentionally with your ad hominem attacks."

I don't respect you, at all. Because you are a dishonest and lying moron. You've never given me a reason to respect you. If I felt you were actually here to learn, I might respect you. If you were open and honest about your primary intention here being to promote your theistic BS, I might even respect that. But you feel the need to be dishonest in the hopes of getting people to engage with you.

Fuck your dishonest bullshit. Drinking Beverage

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16-06-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: If there was actual evidence that we were the product of intelligent design
(16-06-2015 03:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 12:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I come home one day, find my tv gone, my wife's jewelry missing, as well as a variety of other valuables, and the window wide open.

You're saying I can't conclude from this that I've been robbed? What should I take this all to mean then?

1) Your wife got tired of your bullshit and ran away with her hairdresser.
2) You didn't make the payments and repo man caught up with you.
3) Your dog ate them.

4) Aliens

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