If you are a Woman or Black
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01-08-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
I've thought some more about this topic, and really... when you're already being told, Sunday in and Sunday out, what a shitbag you are and how deserving of hell you are, what is it to be told that you're just a little bit *more* of a shitbag?

In other words, what more was it to me to be told that, as a woman, I was just a little bit more scummy? Man or woman, all were deserving of hell. Women just had a bit more baggage, so to speak.

Mind you, I did not grow up with a namby-pamby, watered-down, "kid-friendly" version of the gospel. I knew, at SIX years old, that I was a shitbag and a sinner and unworthy of heaven. I mean, really... at SIX years old, what could I have possibly done to deserve an eternity of torment? Not much, I should think. But all I knew was that I was not perfect, and only perfection was allowed into heaven.

I don't know if my parents took their cue from 2 Timothy 3:16 (All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness) or what, but the point is, they did not believe in sending one's child to the nursery. And so, these messages that were crafted for an adult audience got into my head from a very early start. As an infant, I would have been up front with my parents, listening to hard preaching, hellfire and brimstone type preaching. This shit wove its way deep down into my psyche. It is a miracle (lol) that I got out of it at all. Took me a long time, yes, but to overcome this amount of deeply entrenched bullshit even by the hour of one's death is nothing short of amazing to me.

And also, this (the Bible, the things it said) was not presented as something that one could just shrug off because it didn't "sound good" to them. This was TRUTH. Whether you liked the sound of it or not, you were going to hell unless you got right with Jesus. Whether you liked the sound of it or not, God's word said for a woman to submit unto her husband, to be obedient, blah blah blah... It'd be like saying, "Well, I don't like the sound of gravity, I'd much rather float around..." That's all fine and good, but you are still gravity's bitch. So sorry. Your not liking it or finding it pleasant is completely irrelevant.

Point is, I do not think it is so very difficult to understand how someone could buy into this when they were presented with this garbage at very impressionable ages and told it was TRUTH. I know there are some who were perhaps smarter than me, perhaps a bit more innately skeptical than me, perhaps a bit less eager to please those in positions of authority over them, who saw through these things quickly and rejected the notion of god. Good on those people. That's great. Maybe they won't have nearly so much psychological bullshit to wade through and battle with day in and day out.

I STILL (much to my dismay) find myself operating on Christian-esque principles - thinking that my thoughts themselves can be a sort of "evil" or "ill" whether my actions follow suit or not. As an unbeliever, I think it is actions that matter most - not whatever fleeting thought or feeling that might pass through my mind - and yet I will find myself upset over this or that thought or feeling. And yet I deal with these things.

Fuck, I am rambling. I just... I see this come up so much, and as I have a bit of experience in the area, I felt I should share. Blush

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01-08-2014, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2014 03:09 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
Yeah Escapa, I also think just as much as a person can be convinced that god is truth, that person can be convinced that they are nothing but scum on god's shoe. We already have a set of fantasies swirling around the world manipulating and controlling billions of people. We already know that people can be whole heartedly convinced that something is true that has no basis in reality.

No surprise how a woman could accept the role given to her by the magic book of life.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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01-08-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
This topic speaks to me as a white man.

No, actually it's quite interesting. I find it extremely hard to credit that even given Christianity's role in establishing and perpetuating so much racism and hatred, that very same religion is a big part of cultural identity for those on the receiving end of it... but a doctrine that says to you, "your suffering is righteous" can be a powerful thing.

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01-08-2014, 03:20 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2014 03:24 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
Morality pops into my mind.

Those advocating an "absolute" morality (in other words saying their definition of morality is THE correct one and all others are wrong) fail to glance at change over time. "Racism is absolutely immoral." "Slavery is absolutely immoral." Those fail to acknowledge that in a time when racism and slavery were prevalent and accepted and part of American life, they weren't considered immoral. Sure by today's standards they are certainly immoral, but who knows, in 100 years maybe there will be another revolution and perhaps animals will no longer be confined or kept as pets.

Relating to the actual topic. If your culture's or subculture's moral stance is that you are inherently bad, or lesser than others, you can be convinced that this is just the truth. Self-hatred doesn't seem logical, but it happens.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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01-08-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
(31-07-2014 12:02 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 11:04 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I think I might be the only black person here, but I could be wrong.
Uhhh, no. I clearly have my picture as my avatar. Not sure what ethnicity you think I am. I know there are others, possibly including the OP.

Then it is a good thing I said I could be wrong.

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01-08-2014, 03:46 PM
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
(01-08-2014 03:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Then it is a good thing I said I could be wrong.
No need to get defensive. And yes...you were indeed wrong.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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01-08-2014, 04:03 PM
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
(01-08-2014 03:46 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 03:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Then it is a good thing I said I could be wrong.
No need to get defensive. And yes...you were indeed wrong.

Most defTongue.

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01-08-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
(01-08-2014 04:03 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 03:46 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  No need to get defensive. And yes...you were indeed wrong.

Most defTongue.
I don't know if you were actually making a reference to The Wire, but this is what I thought of when I read your post. Big Grin



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01-08-2014, 04:36 PM
Re: If you are a Woman or Black
I don't any thing for certainty but from data over the years on topics like this, there frequently seems to be a pattern that women are more likely to believe.. Something. I don't know if it's a genetic idea or how girls are raised in different manners. Even when you have not religious women, it shows up that more of them than men are believers in new age woo. Which can range from many things.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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02-08-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: If you are a Woman or Black
I'm not sure how women especially female pastors can reconcile the apparent misogyny in the Bible. Women bring shame to themselves if they pray with their head uncovered.

1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 11:7 - 9*
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35*
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Peter 3:1 -3
1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands

I'd like to some day ask a female pastor how she reconciles that.
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