If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
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05-11-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:36 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 12:58 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  http://www.worldinvisible.com/apologet/bible.htm



So that's over 12,000 manuscripts in the amount of time it took us to get 3 for Alexander the great Smile

If you have a problem reading that paragraph, you can click here and look at pictures :

https://www.google.com/search?q=new+test...d=0CDMQ7Ak

So, there aren't 'thousands of documents', just multiple copies of of the same thing. You are disingenuous.

Yup, I have a huge file on this, Dr carrier breaks it down very well also in his book On the historicity of jesus: why we might have reason for doubt.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-11-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:47 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:41 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  So why is there no geological evidence for this flood?

Sure we have no sea shells worldwide wherever you look... whatever you want to think... Nobody tell this dude sea shells are found on mount Everest Smile

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/16/148753432/...scientists

Quote: Those limestones at the summit, there are fossils reported from those carbonate rocks, and they're mostly little tiny marine invertebrate animals, little sea shells, essentially. And using high-powered microscopes in thin sections of the rock, we can identify what those animals are.

And we know how they got there - by the uplift of mountains by plate tectonics.
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05-11-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:46 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:42 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  You don't know a damned thing about ancient manuscripts for ANY ancient figure... 12,000 ALL TELLING THE SAME STORY by more than 20 different authors... to Alexander's THREE documents in the same time period

Many if not MOST of these manuscripts had the entire new testament contained within, or nearly complete.
.

They're copies. There aren't thousands of documents, just thousands of copies.

So? Copies are all you have for Alexander... only FAR FEWER of them... Jesus is beating Alexander 12,000 to 3 Tongue
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05-11-2014, 01:50 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:48 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:47 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Sure we have no sea shells worldwide wherever you look... whatever you want to think... Nobody tell this dude sea shells are found on mount Everest Smile

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/16/148753432/...scientists

And we know how they got there - by the uplift of mountains by plate tectonics.

lol oh my, did he go there? This guy truly is an amateur, I would wipe the floor with him in a live debate.

Mountains, by no means, have always been mountains. Mountains take enormous geological time to form. On the grand scale of the Earth's existence and as fish are incredibly old creatures, it should be no surprise that fish are found on or even at the top of mountains. Once again, mountains grow and fish that may have been alive before the mountain exists as presently may have died and their skeletons fossilized in a place where a mountain grew. Also, mountains grow as plates are pressed together by tectonic forces and the land is pushed upward. Any fossil deposited would necessarily move up the mountain as the mountain formed. This is why we find dinosaur fossils of all sorts in the sides of mountains more than we find them in flat land. Theres nothing about finding fish fossils on or in mountains that necessitates a world wide flood. Such a flood is proved to never have happened and to not have been possible in the first place. Fish fossils on mountains lend nothing to the creationists' argument.

Perhaps I could draw pictures Consider

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-11-2014, 01:52 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:48 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:46 PM)Rik Wrote:  They're copies. There aren't thousands of documents, just thousands of copies.

So? Copies are all you have for Alexander... only FAR FEWER of them... Jesus is beating Alexander 12,000 to 3 Tongue

There are millions of copies of books on bigfoot....why don't you believe in bigfoot?

“my belief is based on very strong and credible direct testimony from reliable eyewitnesses” .... mmm, wait, no actually it's not. What you mean to say is My belief is based on the copies of the translations of the copies of the translations of the copies of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of a tale that may or may not have been originally told by apostles who may or may not actually have ever existed and may or may not have witnessed the events and may or may not have told them accurately"

Why is it that you believe claims which have overwhelming, almost conclusive, evidence against them and very weak circumstantial historical evidence for them, but you don't believe claims which have only somewhat strong evidence against them, and confirmed eyewitness testimony of interviewable witnesses as evidence for them?

For example, why don't you believe in bigfoot?
Unlike the resurrection, which violates absolutely everything we know about almost every branch of science, the existence of bigfoot doesn't violate the laws of physics, doesn't violate the laws of chemistry, it just seems to violate some of what we know about biology. Furthermore, unlike the resurrection, which is supported by the copy of the translation of the copy of the translation of multiple layers of verbal hearsay by anonymous sources, the existence of bigfoot is supported by direct eyewitnesses alive today, with names, addresses, social security numbers, etc. You yourself can go and interview a bigfoot expert who has seen bigfoot multiple times, and he will share the first hand eyewitness testimony with you directly.

It seems that if you were in the business of believing unlikely stuff and were gonna be consistent rather than biased, there are loads of claims which, though unlikely, are several orders of magnitude more probable than a 30AD flying corpse…like bigfoot, or aliens…lol.

Facepalm

By the way, that hot feeling on your ass is me spanking it with knowledge. I give you a F for delivery, D for knowledge, but an B+ in delusion, carry on. Thumbsup

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-11-2014, 01:53 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:48 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:47 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Sure we have no sea shells worldwide wherever you look... whatever you want to think... Nobody tell this dude sea shells are found on mount Everest Smile

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/16/148753432/...scientists

And we know how they got there - by the uplift of mountains by plate tectonics.

Yup, That's ONE theory :'
YOU explain worldwide flood stories that were ancient when the ancients wrote them or passed them on, even in the Americas... and explain the fossil record that shows extinction event after extinction event... Smile

You cant
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05-11-2014, 01:53 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:48 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:46 PM)Rik Wrote:  They're copies. There aren't thousands of documents, just thousands of copies.

So? Copies are all you have for Alexander... only FAR FEWER of them... Jesus is beating Alexander 12,000 to 3 Tongue

Fuck Alexander. He's not the issue except in your narrow little mind.
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05-11-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:53 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:48 PM)Rik Wrote:  And we know how they got there - by the uplift of mountains by plate tectonics.

Yup, That's ONE theory :'
YOU explain worldwide flood stories that were ancient when the ancients wrote them or passed them on, even in the Americas... and explain the fossil record that shows extinction event after extinction event... Smile

You cant

You explain the lack of any evidence for a global flood.

You can't. Perhaps if you take some science classes yo may learn some stuff.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-11-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:47 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:41 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  So why is there no geological evidence for this flood?

Sure we have no sea shells worldwide wherever you look... whatever you want to think... Nobody tell this dude sea shells are found on mount Everest Smile

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/16/148753432/...scientists

Quote: Those limestones at the summit, there are fossils reported from those carbonate rocks, and they're mostly little tiny marine invertebrate animals, little sea shells, essentially. And using high-powered microscopes in thin sections of the rock, we can identify what those animals are.

Those aren't sea shells. They're fossilised sea shells. You might want to learn the difference. They're also millions of years old. And as someone else pointed out the rock they are found in came from a sea floor that was below current sea level then uplifted by geological activity.

By your logic there should be a layer of sea shell fossils across the whole world. Why isn't there?

Hate the belief, love the believer.
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05-11-2014, 01:55 PM
RE: If you believe Alexander the Great existed, then why not Jesus?
(05-11-2014 01:53 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(05-11-2014 01:48 PM)Rik Wrote:  And we know how they got there - by the uplift of mountains by plate tectonics.

Yup, That's ONE theory :'
YOU explain worldwide flood stories that were ancient when the ancients wrote them or passed them on, even in the Americas... and explain the fossil record that shows extinction event after extinction event... Smile

You cant

You need to read some real grown-up science books because your concepts are childish.

There is no evidence of a world-wide flood. None whatsoever.
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