If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
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05-11-2017, 05:17 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 05:12 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 05:03 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Thanks for the info, but I am a Gnostic Christian, not a Christian, and my kind suffered a number of Inquisitions so I need no convincing of the immorality and war loving ways of Christianity.

I may be beginning to have sympathy for the Christians.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

yea.... this gnostic Christians stuff is far more crazy than I'm prepared to try and unpack in one lifetime. Like I said I'm out, but Unfogged thats the funniest line I've heard this year Smile Thanks for that

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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05-11-2017, 05:22 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 04:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 01:08 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Yet whatever set of rules and laws you follow can be called an ideology.

I agree that one should not subjugate themselves to any ideology and should always be ready, if a better rule or law comes along, tochange what one already believes.

That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity as it urges us to do just that and bids us be perpetual seekers of the best rules and laws to live life by.

You just contradicted your OP. First you say that all morality is subjective, then you say we should "all" look for the best rules and laws to live by. How is everyone supposed to look for a subjective "set of rules" that apply to all, but are only subjective anyway ? Do you people even stop for one second to think about the crap you post ?

What EXACTLY have you determined you want to maximize in your ethical system, and why have you chosen that ?

You might try reading what I say and not reading what you want me to have said into what I put.

Where did I write to look for a subjective "set of rules" that apply to all?

There may not be such a thing given all the lifestyles around.

To your last question.
I have already adopted the best moral system I have found. I am already at the max. That is the goal. There is no particular one issue that I am questioning or seeking the best rule for.

That does not mean I am idol worshiping it or reluctant to change/improve on it if some atheist enlightens me on something.

Regards
DL
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05-11-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 04:53 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 04:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You just contradicted your OP. First you say that all morality is subjective, then you say we should "all" look for the best rules and laws to live by. How is everyone supposed to look for a subjective "set of rules" that apply to all, but are only subjective anyway ? Do you people even stop for one second to think about the crap you post ?

What EXACTLY have you determined you want to maximize in your ethical system, and why have you chosen that ?

Personally I think morality, if you want to call it that is subjective. However I don't bury myself in the other contradictory asinine statements made by that guy....

I know people would disagree with me, particularly one's who like to forcibly ram their version of right and wrong down everyone else's throats. But oh well, that's what I think, I can define it, but if someone isn't going to try and understand my position then discussing the issue with them would be pointless.

I don't really think there's anything wrong with trying to convince others of your position. And I generally value ethics and moral structures that value cooperation, co existence, those things that minimize harm and promote wellbeing to the greatest number of people.

Hmm.... how do I put it... I guess maybe it's not so much that I think morality is subjective though... it's more like to me subjective vs objective morality is in a way a false dichotomy. It's to me a complex topic that requires a great deal of reflection and nuance....

And that guy seems to not be particularly good at it, as you pointed out...

I really don't know, but then again I don't pretend to have all the answers lol.

Nicely put.

Regards
DL
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05-11-2017, 05:47 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 05:00 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
Quote:
(05-11-2017 04:54 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I chose to label myself a Gnostic Christian because it showed up front what a moral person should do in terms of fighting evil.

It was the only religion I knew of that that showed how I could not only improve on my morality as an esoteric ecumenist, but also showed the requirement and logic behind, for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

By calling the immoral Yahweh out for being such a vile demiurge is how we have basically institutionalized that saying of fighting evil.

If all Christians were Gnostic Christians, Christianity could have grown by good arguments and example instead of by the sword and Inquisitions against a superior ideology than theirs.

We did not have to kill or use fear to convert. Christians and Muslims did and continue to do so.

How directly or indirectly my respect for Gnostic Christianity led to my apotheosis, without the divine part of how that word is defined, I do not really know. Since it happened at the time that I was studying Gnostic Christianity, my apotheosis reinforced my belief in that ideology and belief system.

I also had a hard time with believing in the supernatural and if that was a requirement I would still be looking for a moral non-supernatural religion to follow.

Gnostic Christianity is also the only religion I know of that does not conflict with science or create a God of the Gaps and thus I did not have to go half brain dead to be a Gnostic Christian.

Regards
DL

Huh.....

So.....
1. You reject the claims of the bible?

The bible was originally meant to be a rough topological type of guide book and book of wisdom sayings. Christianity put roads on that map that are imaginary and demanded that people follow it their way, which corrupted it.

I do not reject it so much as read it the right way. Lrt me give you a copy past.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.


Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Quote:2. You reject every form of Christianity that has been practiced since the invention of the religion

Not the Gnostic sects although most of what was written about them was by Christianity as it used Inquisitions to win the God wars and have distorted much of what we believed.

Quote:3. You reject the existence of the Christian god?

Hell yes. If Yahweh ever showed his genocidal face and the Haigh did not get him I have a bullet here with that pricks name on it.

Quote:4. You reject that the Christian god is good?

Yes. All moral people should as he is demonstrably evil.

Quote:5. You reject anything supernatural?

Absolutely. My mind id too important to me to let it go into intellectual dissonance.

Quote:6. You reject all the rules (Christianity is pretty blatant about hating gay people for instance) and promises claimed in the Christian holy book?

No. Some of the commandments and the Golden Rule, although plagiarized from older traditions are ok. The first 4 commandments are garbage.

Quote:Gnostic means "knowing" and Christian is a well defined religion with a well known history..... if you reject everything that is uniquely "Christian" why call yourself a gnostic Christian?

I do not reject it all as one of the archetypal Jesus' that speaks in it is an esoteric ecumenist and more Eastern mystic and that is the one I follow. Most Christians never get to know that one as the church never quotes him as he strengthens while they want weak sheeple.
Quote:Edit^ Also what is it your claiming to "know" with your use of the word Gnostic cause it kinda sounds like you don't accept the god claim either, then again given the contradictory nature of all your posts I've seen to this point perhaps your just a troll trying to get people to play an absurd game....

You are showing your mind set more than mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

Quote:Please clarify these questions. You really sound like another person making up a religion and calling it Christianity right now.....

That is what being a Gnostic Christian is all about.

You, as a atheist have created your own moral ideology from all that you know. Why would you want to deny or criticize my doing exactly the same thing, with an Eastern mystic component?

Regards
DL
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05-11-2017, 06:10 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 05:17 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 05:12 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I may be beginning to have sympathy for the Christians.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

yea.... this gnostic Christians stuff is far more crazy than I'm prepared to try and unpack in one lifetime. Like I said I'm out, but Unfogged thats the funniest line I've heard this year Smile Thanks for that

It was probably a bit overt he top since I'd never actually support an inquisition but his position is really frustrating and the repeat of the question shows that he's probably spamming multiple places with the same stuff and not listening to any replies.

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05-11-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 12:55 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 05:55 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I think "immoral" and "evil" are descriptions of actions, so it depends on the actions. So you would have to be more specific. What actions are taking place? Is the religion or ideology really specific about "carry out these actions." Then I would be better able to decide it I should actively oppose it.

Immoral and evil are subjective and thus individual to each of us.

I do not want to do your thinking for you.

Do you fight those ideologies that you find immoral and evil?

If you need to know what I find immoral, and can agree, I can point to homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL

About the same answer. I'm a bit hung up on the word "fight." I have a full time job and have enough on my hands with my family, so I don't feel I have free time to actively go out and "fight" say, murderers, who I deem to be immoral. I like to think that if actions by others I would deem "evil" or "immoral" throw themselves in my face I would fight them. If I am out in public I am willing to intervene if someone is being an asshole and fucking with someone else. Is this close to what you are asking?

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05-11-2017, 07:05 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 05:03 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Thanks for the info, but I am a Gnostic Christian, not a Christian, and my kind suffered a number of Inquisitions so I need no convincing of the immorality and war loving ways of Christianity.

So you're some sort of Christian, but not a Christian.
Well, THAT makes sense.
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-11-2017, 07:11 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 06:50 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 12:55 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Immoral and evil are subjective and thus individual to each of us.

I do not want to do your thinking for you.

Do you fight those ideologies that you find immoral and evil?

If you need to know what I find immoral, and can agree, I can point to homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL

About the same answer. I'm a bit hung up on the word "fight." I have a full time job and have enough on my hands with my family, so I don't feel I have free time to actively go out and "fight" say, murderers, who I deem to be immoral. I like to think that if actions by others I would deem "evil" or "immoral" throw themselves in my face I would fight them. If I am out in public I am willing to intervene if someone is being an asshole and fucking with someone else. Is this close to what you are asking?

I was thinking more of fighting ideologies deemed harmful than what you are referring to but I see nothing wrong in taking a pro-active role in helping others against a more physical hooligan if the opportunity comes ones way.

Regards
DL
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05-11-2017, 07:14 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 07:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 05:03 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Thanks for the info, but I am a Gnostic Christian, not a Christian, and my kind suffered a number of Inquisitions so I need no convincing of the immorality and war loving ways of Christianity.

So you're some sort of Christian, but not a Christian.
Well, THAT makes sense.
Facepalm

It did to John Lennon when he said that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

He was one of the more enlightened atheists.

Regards
DL
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05-11-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(05-11-2017 07:11 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 06:50 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  About the same answer. I'm a bit hung up on the word "fight." I have a full time job and have enough on my hands with my family, so I don't feel I have free time to actively go out and "fight" say, murderers, who I deem to be immoral. I like to think that if actions by others I would deem "evil" or "immoral" throw themselves in my face I would fight them. If I am out in public I am willing to intervene if someone is being an asshole and fucking with someone else. Is this close to what you are asking?

I was thinking more of fighting ideologies deemed harmful than what you are referring to but I see nothing wrong in taking a pro-active role in helping others against a more physical hooligan if the opportunity comes ones way.

Regards
DL

Okay. I guess I'm thinking of it in terms of one's opportunity to fight evil. The KKK or the Nazi party, for example, I think wrap themselves up so unambiguously in their ideologies that the target is unmissable when they wear their swag. If either were to have a rally near me I would want to be there as a counter-protester. Things like "misogyny" and "homophobia" and "racism" sure, I'm against and want to "fight" but I confess to not contributing much to the struggle, I think those are slipperier targets.

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