If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
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13-10-2017, 07:57 PM
RE: shorten the title
(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If we cannot begin with a general understanding of words, we will never finish or even begin.

Atheists are not the ones (usually) who play word games, like faith/trust.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you need me to define what most here seem to understand then

You object to me asking you for clarification? You would rather I assume your beliefs and intentions?

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  What is more immoral than killing? Mass killing.

There have been religions and governments (religious and secular) that have conducted genocide campaigns. In those areas those governments maintained that they acted justly.

What is your basis for arguing against them? Your god?

What is the source of your morality?

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Others rejected their immoral creeds and died for what they believed in, which includded freedom of thought.

Religions like christianity specifically preach predestination (eliminates free thought) and thought crime, which makes even thinking about sin, a sin. So god created you, knowing you would sin, then punished your for sinning and thinking about sin.

I missed the "freedom" part.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I think a faith based religion can have moral tenets and be respected for those tenets.

A belief without evidence (i.e. faith) is unjustified and undeserving of respect. Morality based on god is subject to the whims of that god and/or its representatives.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  That is close to what Gnostic Christianity is but we do not have faith. We know we can find the best rules and laws and seek them perpetually by accepting the best, raising our standards bar and seeking anew.

Knowledge is justified true belief. You cannot have knowledge based on faith. Faith leads to belief not knowledge.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  No. I let the worthy ones spread their own and compliment them when I can.

That is reasonable.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I disagree with your "The most that can be said historically is that he probably lived." but you are right on the rest.

I base that statement on the multiple, excruciatingly long threads here that deal with that topic. My point is simply that if an omnipotent being was involved there should not be any doubt.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The bible is a consolidation of many beliefs and we have no way of knowing which older traditions were plagiarized to create it.

The histories of the old testament and the jewish texts are fairly well understood. The gospels and the new testaments are harder because of the sword of orthodoxy.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Yes. A bit. It's a long story and I have no evidence that can be shared and only talk of my apotheosis in an anecdotal way. Most do not want to believe in such things without experiencing it themselves. I was the same way.

This boils down to the claim that you do know the mind of god and the evidence is your own personal experience.

This is the same claim and evidence of Saul of Tarsus.

This is the same claim and evidence that gave us islam.

Do you see? There has to be evidence.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Humble is for those who are not sure of their facts and ideas.

That is an extremely precarious mindset.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I will likely agree with your definitions should you care to share.

Perhaps later.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  From that you will note that we know we all have a spark of God within us.

Do you know the mind of the only God you can ever know? Yes you do as he is you.

Until there is more evidence I cannot accept that claim.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Whose moral tenets do you follow if not your own? Who decides what the best rules and laws to live by if not you?

Call that what you will in terms of ideology, religion or whatever.

A person does tend to follow their own moral tenets, usually those taught to them as a child. However most people will try to conform to the laws of the society in which they live. However when the laws of a society conflict with the personal morals, it is the individual with fewer options that loses.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I call it the ideals of Gnostic Christianity. The only possible bridge that I know between atheism and religion.

If the religious keep their religions to themselves, there is no need of a bridge. When the religious force their beliefs on me there is need of a fence.

(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Apologies for the quote mess. I thought I was catching everything correctly.

I should probably stop breaking things down so much. I try to isolate things point by point, but it sometimes it causes issues.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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13-10-2017, 07:59 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
Um. This is all a bunch of hoo-haw and nonsense. You're blathering on and on about myths and fairytale on a forum that does not believe in myths and fairytales. First you need to provide incontrovertible evidence your god exists. After you've completed step one then maybe we can have a conversations....otherwise, Mr. Gnostic Christian, it's a waste of time.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-10-2017, 08:03 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL

I’m a Jew, and my religion only calls for us to fight if we’re being threatened, and only requires us to impress our value system onto those who murder people, steal things, abuse animals, etc, and who do not live in a society with enforceable laws to prevent these things.

Christians and Muslims don’t own slaves today, and they’re not universally intolerant. Yes, there are those who are homophobic and misogynous, but this doesn’t characterize every Christian and I doubt that it even characterizes most Christians. I see that the west is predominately Christian, and I see that these are progressive nations. Hell, even you are a Christian, but I’m sure you have morals to do the “right thing.”

Is it appropriate to actively oppose ideologies that you see as immoral or evil? That depends. Is the thing actually happening? Did you witness it first hand or have reliable account that it’s actually happening? If that’s the case, yes, you should oppose it.

I think beheading journalists is an atrocity. I oppose it. I even go so far as to support those who are doing something about it.

I also think Christians believe the wrong thing. I think it’s immoral to practice idolatry like that, but I don’t oppose their lifestyle unless they’re not harming themselves or others. The idolatry isn’t accompanied by child sacrifice, so I’m happy to make some elbow room if they want to worship a human idol.

Bottom line: Pick and choose your battles.
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13-10-2017, 08:05 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:02 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 06:52 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  From that you will note that we know we all have a spark of God within us.

How do you define "god"? If you prefer, how do you envision god or the concept of god?

My apotheosis showed that we all have a spark of God within us and that that spark can access a cosmic consciousness. Some call it oneness because of the melding of consciousness's. That is what apotheosis is although I take the divine part out of the definition of that word. Divine is a title that can only be given and not a label that one can put on himself.

I do not see God as supernatural because I cannot do anything supernatural.

What I learned was that my paradigm was on the right path and that I should think more demographically. That was about it. Not that big a deal really, other than learning the truth of telepathy.

I do not bother arguing with those who do not want to believe me because I have no evidence to show. I did have one previous telepathic experience and without a confirmation I would likely believed my second experience with the cosmic consciousness, I would not believe as I do and would have chalked it off as a mind burp or something other than real.

Most are not inclined to believe in telepathy without experiencing it themselves and without that belief, the belief in a cosmic or universal consciousness is impossible, especially when many class that as a part of the supernatural.

My definition of God is the best rules and laws possible and those are what I seek perpetually, raising that bar of excellence and always looking for the better.

Those rules can be followed but some invisible guy in the sky cannot.

That is why I like Gnostic Christianity and see it as the best bridge between all belief systems including atheism.

Regards
DL
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13-10-2017, 08:09 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 08:05 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 07:02 PM)unfogged Wrote:  How do you define "god"? If you prefer, how do you envision god or the concept of god?

My apotheosis showed that we all have a spark of God within us and that that spark can access a cosmic consciousness. Some call it oneness because of the melding of consciousness's. That is what apotheosis is although I take the divine part out of the definition of that word. Divine is a title that can only be given and not a label that one can put on himself.

I do not see God as supernatural because I cannot do anything supernatural.

What I learned was that my paradigm was on the right path and that I should think more demographically. That was about it. Not that big a deal really, other than learning the truth of telepathy.

I do not bother arguing with those who do not want to believe me because I have no evidence to show. I did have one previous telepathic experience and without a confirmation I would likely believed my second experience with the cosmic consciousness, I would not believe as I do and would have chalked it off as a mind burp or something other than real.

Most are not inclined to believe in telepathy without experiencing it themselves and without that belief, the belief in a cosmic or universal consciousness is impossible, especially when many class that as a part of the supernatural.

My definition of God is the best rules and laws possible and those are what I seek perpetually, raising that bar of excellence and always looking for the better.

Those rules can be followed but some invisible guy in the sky cannot.

That is why I like Gnostic Christianity and see it as the best bridge between all belief systems including atheism.

Regards
DL

Well, it sounds like you're very content with your lifestyle. Thanks for stopping by.
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13-10-2017, 08:11 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:27 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 05:29 PM)julep Wrote:  Your post seems to be trying to recruit people on this site to join you in some kind of holy war (of words--at first--I hope) against theists who worship god in a way that offends you. I'm gonna sit that one out.

I don't hold to an ideology that obligates me to oppose certain groups, though there are lots of ideologies I don't much like. I especially detest ideologies that encourage their members to exist in a state of pompous self-congratulation.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

When your female children cannot get the same wage or job as a man or when a gay child comes out of your genetic line, they might wonder why you did not fight the misogyny and homophobia that religions propagate.

Regards
DL

How very platitudinous of you.
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13-10-2017, 08:11 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:12 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect.

That would be all of them, including whatever flavor yours is.

Gnostic Christianity, in many ways matches atheist beliefs.

Enlighten us as to what you find immoral in Gnostic Christian doctrines that differ from your own moral tenets.

I am eager to improve my morality defend myself against your aligation and you seem to think I need help.

Please help me be a better man.

Regards
DL
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13-10-2017, 08:17 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:45 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Greatest, just wondering. What are your thoughts on salvation?

It is a religious invention designed to create a false sense of guilt in gullible people so as to make them beholden to their clergy and basically slave them to their idol worshiping creeds.

All priests, preachers and imams are perpetual liars who want people to think that they can buy their way into heaven.

Bishop Spong says it better.





Regards
DL
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13-10-2017, 08:26 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 08:17 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 07:45 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Greatest, just wondering. What are your thoughts on salvation?

It is a religious invention designed to create a false sense of guilt in gullible people so as to make them beholden to their clergy and basically slave them to their idol worshiping creeds.

All priests, preachers and imams are perpetual liars who want people to think that they can buy their way into heaven.

Bishop Spong says it better.





Regards
DL

What are your thoughts on heaven?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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13-10-2017, 08:26 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:54 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 07:47 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Gnostic Christians call our God, I am, and yes we mean us.

Regards
DL

At least you didn't try to say your religion is innocent. And I know many names. In my religious (and partly scholarly) days, Christian and otherwise, I've called that god by many names including God, Elohim, Adonai, Ain Sof, Ab, and so on.

I'm curious as to the part about God saying those things about its religion. The main problem is that how can a god say not to praise its own religion yet praise it at the same time. Does not that point to a book that is obviously written by humans and not inspired by a deity?

Yes. We admit that God is man made and if their are any deities, they are us.

We, as one of the archetypal Jesus says, are the light of the world. That is why angels are to bow to us.

And no, angels do not exist. That is a metaphor showing we are not to bow to any angel or God and to disrespect anyone who would put us under them.

Like idol worshipers like Christians and Muslims.

Regards
DL
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