If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
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13-10-2017, 08:32 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
Before I get into any more, are you the type of Gnostic who believes in the Demiurge stories?
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13-10-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:57 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I should probably stop breaking things down so much. I try to isolate things point by point, but it sometimes it causes issues.

Please don't. That is the way I like it.

I will reply to your post further tomorrow when I have more time to learn to use the quote function as you do.

I am beat an heading for bed.

Regards
DL
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13-10-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL

It is simple.

The Ethic of Reciprocity, aka the Golden Rule, is the only thing that rings true to me. Despite everything you think you have learned from Gnosticism, the reality is that everything Christ purportedly taught boils down to one thing, the Golden Rule.

You do not need anything else. Observe the following:

Mat 22:35  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying, 
Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? 
Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second commandment is just like the first, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.


You will notice above that the 2nd commandment is akin to the Golden Rule, and then in Mat 22:40 you will see Christ stating that everything in the Judaic Law and everything spoken by the prophets depends on the 1st and 2nd Commandments.

Basically, what he's telling you is that if you love your neighbor as yourself, truly love them, then you will not steal, covet, lie, nor break any commandment, nor do any harm to anyone. And if you can simply do that, then that is all that required of you.

That's all you need to know. There's nothing more Gnosticism can teach you, nor can any other ideology teach you anything more. Simply follow the Golden Rule, and you will have accomplished all.

And this rule is not unique to Christ, as it goes back long before him by many great philosophers.

It is the sum total of all the teaching and understanding you require.

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13-10-2017, 09:34 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil
(13-10-2017 06:58 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 04:42 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  How would you develop a "moral" system through the bible?

Perhaps by picking which parts you like?

[Image: Al-Bundy-Well-Here-We-Go-Again.jpg]

Yes, and recognizing the immorality of what I do not like.

Is that not how you developed your favored moral tenets?

Let me go longer.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.


Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Regards
DL

I agree with much of what you say, yet I think it's simply more honest to acknowledge a couple of points:

1. The bible is a terrible book to derive a moral code from, there's just too much crap in there for it to be useful, you have to cut out so many parts, re-interpret other parts. At what point is this tome simply tossed into the trash and you start from scratch?

2. The bible has an implied authority that it is derived from a god. It simply is not, it's primitive and barbaric origins shout from it's pages. The people that wrote it had an occasional glimpse of morality- the derived reciprocity principle, yet it's hard to find within it's blood-soaked pages.

To derive something of value from the bible is not productive, convincing people to set it aside and stop using it to justify their moral barbarism is more productive.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-10-2017, 10:43 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2017 11:23 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

The Inquisition is long over. What is your point ?

Quote:I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

Quote:Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions.

Wrong. They were always intollerant. They were not "homophobic" as homosexuality did not exist in the history of human ideas until the 19th Century. They opposed same sex activity for other reasons.
What ? You know no history ?

Quote:Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Jesus (if he existed) never used the word abomination. Your religion is nothing but a reflection of your own opinions.

Quote:Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

I worship the god Bob. Many here at TTA believe he is the One True God.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-10-2017, 10:45 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 08:46 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL

It is simple.

The Ethic of Reciprocity, aka the Golden Rule, is the only thing that rings true to me. Despite everything you think you have learned from Gnosticism, the reality is that everything Christ purportedly taught boils down to one thing, the Golden Rule.

You do not need anything else. Observe the following:

Mat 22:35  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying, 
Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? 
Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second commandment is just like the first, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.


You will notice above that the 2nd commandment is akin to the Golden Rule, and then in Mat 22:40 you will see Christ stating that everything in the Judaic Law and everything spoken by the prophets depends on the 1st and 2nd Commandments.

Basically, what he's telling you is that if you love your neighbor as yourself, truly love them, then you will not steal, covet, lie, nor break any commandment, nor do any harm to anyone. And if you can simply do that, then that is all that required of you.

That's all you need to know. There's nothing more Gnosticism can teach you, nor can any other ideology teach you anything more. Simply follow the Golden Rule, and you will have accomplished all.

And this rule is not unique to Christ, as it goes back long before him by many great philosophers.

It is the sum total of all the teaching and understanding you require.

When the young man in Matthew asked Jesus what he had to do to get into heaven, Jesus said "Keep the commandments".
Nothing else.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-10-2017, 11:05 PM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:23 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 04:51 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  To the extent that religions try to seize control of these processes, secularism opposes that.

Sometimes.

The U.S. is a secular system and believes in secularism yet look at the greenback.
It says in God we trust, and will not elect an atheist to most high offices.

I am not saying that the U.S. is a religious state, even as that is what it still touts itself as, but it is not a secular state either.

Wait till the end of this and see the face of one of your elected senators and tell me what, if not religion, got such a fool elected.





Regards
DL

The United States is secular IN THEORY.

In practice.... anything but.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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14-10-2017, 01:46 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
Angele, I know I am a little late but just because the poster "Greatist I am" or whatever is a nutter does not mean he is recently out of prison. He may be recently out of the funny farm.
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14-10-2017, 06:13 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2017 07:51 AM by unfogged.)
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 07:11 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Who is your God if not you?

I do not have a "god". "I have no need of that hypothesis."

Quote:Here is another one for you to ponder....

Quote:Here is a mind exercise. ...

Here's a thought.... fuck off with the preaching style.

(13-10-2017 08:05 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 07:02 PM)unfogged Wrote:  How do you define "god"? If you prefer, how do you envision god or the concept of god?

My apotheosis showed that we all have a spark of God within us and that that spark can access a cosmic consciousness. Some call it oneness because of the melding of consciousness's. That is what apotheosis is although I take the divine part out of the definition of that word. Divine is a title that can only be given and not a label that one can put on himself.

Saying we have "a spark of god" doesn't mean anything without knowing what "god" is. I see no evidence at all for any sort of "cosmic consciousness" or "melding of consciousnesses" so you need to start with the evidence for those things.

Quote:...other than learning the truth of telepathy.

I do not bother arguing with those who do not want to believe me because I have no evidence to show. I did have one previous telepathic experience and without a confirmation I would likely believed my second experience with the cosmic consciousness, I would not believe as I do and would have chalked it off as a mind burp or something other than real.

Uh huh. "Things that can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Quote:Most are not inclined to believe in telepathy without experiencing it themselves and without that belief, the belief in a cosmic or universal consciousness is impossible, especially when many class that as a part of the supernatural.

Well, then I guess there's no much point in talking about it, right? I don't accept claims that aren't based on something demonstrable and you have nothing to support your claim.

Quote:My definition of God is the best rules and laws possible and those are what I seek perpetually, raising that bar of excellence and always looking for the better.

In my opinion, using "god" to describe something like that is, at best, disingenuous.

Quote:That is why I like Gnostic Christianity and see it as the best bridge between all belief systems including atheism.

The early forms of gnostic xianity did involve supernatural entities and keeping the label, especially the "Christianity" part, is naturally going to cause confusion.

Some of the goals you've outlined I have no issue with at all but replacing a supernatural agent with things like telepathy and a melded consciousness is hardly an improvement. To the extent that you are publicly making claims about the nature of reality that you can't support I consider your actions to be immoral.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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14-10-2017, 06:28 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
Oops Oops

Regards
DL
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