If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
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14-10-2017, 06:42 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 08:03 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL

I’m a Jew, and my religion only calls for us to fight if we’re being threatened, and only requires us to impress our value system onto those who murder people, steal things, abuse animals, etc, and who do not live in a society with enforceable laws to prevent these things.

Christians and Muslims don’t own slaves today, and they’re not universally intolerant. Yes, there are those who are homophobic and misogynous, but this doesn’t characterize every Christian and I doubt that it even characterizes most Christians. I see that the west is predominately Christian, and I see that these are progressive nations. Hell, even you are a Christian, but I’m sure you have morals to do the “right thing.”

Is it appropriate to actively oppose ideologies that you see as immoral or evil? That depends. Is the thing actually happening? Did you witness it first hand or have reliable account that it’s actually happening? If that’s the case, yes, you should oppose it.

I think beheading journalists is an atrocity. I oppose it. I even go so far as to support those who are doing something about it.

I also think Christians believe the wrong thing. I think it’s immoral to practice idolatry like that, but I don’t oppose their lifestyle unless they’re not harming themselves or others. The idolatry isn’t accompanied by child sacrifice, so I’m happy to make some elbow room if they want to worship a human idol.

Bottom line: Pick and choose your battles.

Thanks for this.


I am not a Christian. I am a Gnostic Christian.

If you do not see the damage that religions like Christianity and Islam do to us, it surprises me.

You say there is no slavery while ignoring that I can buy a Muslim child for a few cows and that Muslim women are basically slaves to Muslim men.

Regards
DL
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14-10-2017, 06:45 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 08:26 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 08:17 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  It is a religious invention designed to create a false sense of guilt in gullible people so as to make them beholden to their clergy and basically slave them to their idol worshiping creeds.

All priests, preachers and imams are perpetual liars who want people to think that they can buy their way into heaven.

Bishop Spong says it better.





Regards
DL

What are your thoughts on heaven?

It is here and now.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Given entropy and the anthropic principle, we live in the best of all possible worlds as it is the only possible world.

Sure, we can all imagine a better world but that does not refute the statement above.

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DL
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14-10-2017, 06:52 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 08:32 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Before I get into any more, are you the type of Gnostic who believes in the Demiurge stories?

No.

Our myths were written at a time when everyone knew that the Christian stories were myths. We just wrote them to enhance the discussions and other speculations of the population. When Christians became idol worshipers is when the poo hit the fan. Gnostic Christianity does not have any supernatural beliefs at all. We are naturalists. Not fools.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

This following speaks to how we viewed Jesus before Christians tied him to Yahweh, which I see as an insult to the archetypal Jesus'.





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DL
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14-10-2017, 06:55 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 08:46 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL

It is simple.

The Ethic of Reciprocity, aka the Golden Rule, is the only thing that rings true to me. Despite everything you think you have learned from Gnosticism, the reality is that everything Christ purportedly taught boils down to one thing, the Golden Rule.

You do not need anything else. Observe the following:

Mat 22:35  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying, 
Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? 
Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second commandment is just like the first, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.


You will notice above that the 2nd commandment is akin to the Golden Rule, and then in Mat 22:40 you will see Christ stating that everything in the Judaic Law and everything spoken by the prophets depends on the 1st and 2nd Commandments.

Basically, what he's telling you is that if you love your neighbor as yourself, truly love them, then you will not steal, covet, lie, nor break any commandment, nor do any harm to anyone. And if you can simply do that, then that is all that required of you.

That's all you need to know. There's nothing more Gnosticism can teach you, nor can any other ideology teach you anything more. Simply follow the Golden Rule, and you will have accomplished all.

And this rule is not unique to Christ, as it goes back long before him by many great philosophers.

It is the sum total of all the teaching and understanding you require.

I agree. There is even a scholar who is trying to form a movement around the Golden Rule.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Regards
DL
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14-10-2017, 06:59 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 09:34 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 06:58 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Yes, and recognizing the immorality of what I do not like.

Is that not how you developed your favored moral tenets?

Let me go longer.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.


Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Regards
DL

I agree with much of what you say, yet I think it's simply more honest to acknowledge a couple of points:

1. The bible is a terrible book to derive a moral code from, there's just too much crap in there for it to be useful, you have to cut out so many parts, re-interpret other parts. At what point is this tome simply tossed into the trash and you start from scratch?

2. The bible has an implied authority that it is derived from a god. It simply is not, it's primitive and barbaric origins shout from it's pages. The people that wrote it had an occasional glimpse of morality- the derived reciprocity principle, yet it's hard to find within it's blood-soaked pages.

To derive something of value from the bible is not productive, convincing people to set it aside and stop using it to justify their moral barbarism is more productive.

We have no argument, even though I see reading the evil in it as showing me what is good when I reverse it or recognize the evil in it.

Regards
DL
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14-10-2017, 07:00 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 10:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 08:46 PM)Free Wrote:  It is simple.

The Ethic of Reciprocity, aka the Golden Rule, is the only thing that rings true to me. Despite everything you think you have learned from Gnosticism, the reality is that everything Christ purportedly taught boils down to one thing, the Golden Rule.

You do not need anything else. Observe the following:

Mat 22:35  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying, 
Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? 
Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second commandment is just like the first, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.


You will notice above that the 2nd commandment is akin to the Golden Rule, and then in Mat 22:40 you will see Christ stating that everything in the Judaic Law and everything spoken by the prophets depends on the 1st and 2nd Commandments.

Basically, what he's telling you is that if you love your neighbor as yourself, truly love them, then you will not steal, covet, lie, nor break any commandment, nor do any harm to anyone. And if you can simply do that, then that is all that required of you.

That's all you need to know. There's nothing more Gnosticism can teach you, nor can any other ideology teach you anything more. Simply follow the Golden Rule, and you will have accomplished all.

And this rule is not unique to Christ, as it goes back long before him by many great philosophers.

It is the sum total of all the teaching and understanding you require.

When the young man in Matthew asked Jesus what he had to do to get into heaven, Jesus said "Keep the commandments".
Nothing else.

That is true.

And when you think about what Christ purportedly said in my previous post regarding how if people truly honor and abide by the 2nd Commandment that all the other commandments will automatically be kept, and that the 2nd Commandment sums up everything in the Law and what the prophets said, then what else is there to know?

It's such a simple message. The entire bible is summed up in one single commandment.

Therefore, simply honor the Golden Rule and all believers will have honored the entire bible and all the purported teachings of Jesus everywhere, including Gnosticism.

Hell, most atheists I know adhere to the Golden Rule more so than almost all Christians I know. Therefore, it would appear to me that if Heaven were to ever exist, atheists would be first in line to get in.

Laugh out load

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14-10-2017, 07:01 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 10:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 03:22 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.
The Inquisition is long over. What is your point ?

Quote:I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.


Quote:Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions.

Wrong. They were always intollerant. They were not "homophobic" as homosexuality did not exist in the history of human ideas until the 19th Century. They opposed same sex activity for other reasons.
What ? You know no history ?

Quote:Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Jesus (if he existed) never used the word abomination. Your religion is nothing but a reflection of your own opinions.

Quote:Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

I worship the god Bob. Many here at TTA believe he is the One True God.

"You know no history ? "

That was my thought of your views.

Regards
DL
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14-10-2017, 07:02 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 10:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 08:46 PM)Free Wrote:  It is simple.

The Ethic of Reciprocity, aka the Golden Rule, is the only thing that rings true to me. Despite everything you think you have learned from Gnosticism, the reality is that everything Christ purportedly taught boils down to one thing, the Golden Rule.

You do not need anything else. Observe the following:

Mat 22:35  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying, 
Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? 
Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second commandment is just like the first, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.


You will notice above that the 2nd commandment is akin to the Golden Rule, and then in Mat 22:40 you will see Christ stating that everything in the Judaic Law and everything spoken by the prophets depends on the 1st and 2nd Commandments.

Basically, what he's telling you is that if you love your neighbor as yourself, truly love them, then you will not steal, covet, lie, nor break any commandment, nor do any harm to anyone. And if you can simply do that, then that is all that required of you.

That's all you need to know. There's nothing more Gnosticism can teach you, nor can any other ideology teach you anything more. Simply follow the Golden Rule, and you will have accomplished all.

And this rule is not unique to Christ, as it goes back long before him by many great philosophers.

It is the sum total of all the teaching and understanding you require.

When the young man in Matthew asked Jesus what he had to do to get into heaven, Jesus said "Keep the commandments".
Nothing else.

True. An impossible task though given the first few commandments.

Regards
DL
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14-10-2017, 07:03 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(14-10-2017 06:52 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Our myths were written at a time when everyone knew that the Christian stories were myths. We just wrote them to enhance the discussions and other speculations of the population. When Christians became idol worshipers is when the poo hit the fan.

When exactly was it that "everyone" accepted what you claim, and what are the scholarly references you have that demonstrate this ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-10-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose
(13-10-2017 11:05 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 07:23 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Sometimes.

The U.S. is a secular system and believes in secularism yet look at the greenback.
It says in God we trust, and will not elect an atheist to most high offices.

I am not saying that the U.S. is a religious state, even as that is what it still touts itself as, but it is not a secular state either.

Wait till the end of this and see the face of one of your elected senators and tell me what, if not religion, got such a fool elected.





Regards
DL

The United States is secular IN THEORY.

In practice.... anything but.

I would put it as 50/50 and a work in progress, --- with one anchor holding the U.S back.





Regards
DL
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