Ignorance about anarchism
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24-06-2014, 07:20 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 01:40 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 05:46 PM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  Quote them then.
I don't have to.

Then you are making shit up.
Strawmen are easy to beat up but it impresses no one.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

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24-06-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(22-06-2014 02:31 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 09:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Ah, the usual Lumi false characterization by extreme polarity. Dodgy

No, it is far more nuanced than that. People are imperfect, unpredictable, inconsistent. Some are bad, some are good, most are in between.

We don't elect people to rule, we elect people to govern. Those are not the same thing.
It pisses people off when I do that: No - you just did the thing of which you blame me. You characterized me with extreme polarity as someone who characterizes things with extreme polarity. I just take what you say and seek some sense in it, I run it through debug testing if it does compute. So far it doesn't.

If most people are in between, most governments will also be in between at the very best, some good some bad, plus additional costs on society for just having a government. How is that an improvement? How can government change people if it's made out of the same kind of people?

And I ask again, how do we separate fit people from unfit people to rule, govern, or whatever? By popular vote? If people aren't fit to be free, why are they good enough to vote? Will that make them any smarter? I don't think so, democracy is a massive subsidy to the sub-genius majority. It gives stupidity more power. Hell, it gives Christians more power.

By the way, as long as government controls currency, it is a rule of people through their money and labor, not governance. Ask IRS if you can pay taxes in Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency, which is not under the control of government.

Wow, what a bizarre response.
Who expects government to "change people"? What does that even mean?

And, yes, we elect by popular vote those we believe are fit to govern. Guess what? We make mistakes.
People are not perfect, they aren't even perfectible.

Shove your rants up your ass.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-06-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 10:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  Wow, what a bizarre response.
Who expects government to "change people"? What does that even mean?

And, yes, we elect by popular vote those we believe are fit to govern. Guess what? We make mistakes.
People are not perfect, they aren't even perfectible.

Shove your rants up your ass.
OK, we see this is not a perfect solution, is there a way not to participate? Like you don't believe in God and don't pay church tithes, but you can stay where you are living.
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24-06-2014, 01:43 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 01:40 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 10:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  Wow, what a bizarre response.
Who expects government to "change people"? What does that even mean?

And, yes, we elect by popular vote those we believe are fit to govern. Guess what? We make mistakes.
People are not perfect, they aren't even perfectible.

Shove your rants up your ass.
OK, we see this is not a perfect solution, is there a way not to participate? Like you don't believe in God and don't pay church tithes, but you can stay where you are living.
Be a mars colonist.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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24-06-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 01:43 PM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  Be a mars colonist.
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24-06-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 01:40 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 10:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  Wow, what a bizarre response.
Who expects government to "change people"? What does that even mean?

And, yes, we elect by popular vote those we believe are fit to govern. Guess what? We make mistakes.
People are not perfect, they aren't even perfectible.

Shove your rants up your ass.

OK, we see this is not a perfect solution, is there a way not to participate? Like you don't believe in God and don't pay church tithes, but you can stay where you are living.

Not participate?

What, just exempt yourself from laws and taxation and what-not? Just because you don't like that it isn't working in a fantasy of perfection?

... Fuck it, I don't know about anybody else here, but I'm cool with that; so long as those who decide to opt-out of such things are cool with exempting themselves from related services like healthcare and law enforcement protection.. They can still live where they are, of course.

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24-06-2014, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2014 04:41 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 03:52 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Not participate?

What, just exempt yourself from laws and taxation and what-not? Just because you don't like that it isn't working in a fantasy of perfection?

... Fuck it, I don't know about anybody else here, but I'm cool with that; so long as those who decide to opt-out of such things are cool with exempting themselves from related services like healthcare and law enforcement protection.. They can still live where they are, of course.
Well, you can exempt yourself from Church membership, Microsoft Windows, military service, and so on - and pursue your own odd stuff. Stuff like atheism, open-source software, personal protection, private pension investment, private schools or homeschooling, alternative medicine... (I know, not all of these are great)
All these services, they could use some competition. True, someone may be put out of business, but that means there is a better competitor to step in and take it over. Things that are wanted don't disappear, they just get better providers. I mean, if the official services are so great, why are they afraid to let you have a choice? Well, you can choose an alternative - but you still pay for the official services, so you pay double.

The annoying thing about taxes is, even if you're a perfect hippie, paying nothing, you still pay with having fewer jobs and worse jobs. They just don't spring up that well, in private sector, they appear in public sector by central decision and with already pretty much decided who's going to work them. So even if you sign out somehow, you're still in the shadow of the system.

So I was kind of pulling your leg a little. These seemingly innocent questions are actually fuckin' no-win Catch 22 situations, repeated by anarchists since the Enlightenment era or so. My only excuse is, none of that was my idea.
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24-06-2014, 05:00 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 04:16 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 03:52 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Not participate?

What, just exempt yourself from laws and taxation and what-not? Just because you don't like that it isn't working in a fantasy of perfection?

... Fuck it, I don't know about anybody else here, but I'm cool with that; so long as those who decide to opt-out of such things are cool with exempting themselves from related services like healthcare and law enforcement protection.. They can still live where they are, of course.
Well, you can exempt yourself from Church membership, Microsoft Windows, military service, and so on - and pursue your own odd stuff. Stuff like atheism, open-source software, personal protection, private pension investment, private schools or homeschooling, alternative medicine... (I know, not all of these are great)
All these services, they could use some competition. True, someone may be put out of business, but that means there is a better competitor to step in and take it over. Things that are wanted don't disappear, they just get better providers. I mean, if the official services are so great, why are they afraid to let you have a choice? Well, you can choose an alternative - but you still pay for the official services, so you pay double.

The annoying thing about taxes is, even if you're a perfect hippie, paying nothing, you still pay with having fewer jobs and worse jobs. They just don't spring up that well, in private sector, they appear in public sector by central decision and with already pretty much decided who's going to work them. So even if you sign out somehow, you're still in the shadow of the system.

So I was kind of pulling your leg a little. These seemingly innocent questions are actually fuckin' no-win Catch 22 situations, repeated by anarchists since the Enlightenment era or so. My only excuse is, none of that was my idea.

You have a point you are getting to anytime soon? If it is just crying because you have to pay back into the society you were born in please go else where with it.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-06-2014, 06:26 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 05:00 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You have a point you are getting to anytime soon? If it is just crying because you have to pay back into the society you were born in please go else where with it.

Quiet, you.

I'm sure in whatever fantasist wish-fulfillment anarchist utopia anyone cares to imagine, the problem of someone who up and decides, "I don't like you guys, so I'm gonna leech and contribute nothing" would never occur.

And even if it did I'm totally sure there'd be no consequences whatsoever, of course.

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24-06-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(24-06-2014 06:26 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 05:00 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You have a point you are getting to anytime soon? If it is just crying because you have to pay back into the society you were born in please go else where with it.

Quiet, you.

I'm sure in whatever fantasist wish-fulfillment anarchist utopia anyone cares to imagine, the problem of someone who up and decides, "I don't like you guys, so I'm gonna leech and contribute nothing" would never occur.

And even if it did I'm totally sure there'd be no consequences whatsoever, of course.

Well considering they would not even have a road to the next town over there would not be much for them to leech.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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