Ignorance about anarchism
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14-05-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(14-05-2014 05:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Anarchy is a bad thing and most people who call themselves anarchists are either so self centered as to be close to sociopaths or young idealists who have no concept of the real world.

I used to consider myself an anarchist going on some 4 decades ago, and then I grew up.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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14-05-2014, 05:52 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
I'm a bit confused. Huh

Is there something wrong in the following chain of equations:

Anarchism = state where nobody answers to anybody but themselves = state with no imposing body of law & order = Libertarianism?

Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια?
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14-05-2014, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2014 09:19 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
This thread reminds of what happened in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, the "anarchists" started shooting at the police helicopters while they continued to loot.

Our civility is only a thin veneer kept in check by law enforcement and rules. Remove either and it becomes chaos. Shit, even with both it's still dicey.

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."- Mark Twain in Eruption
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15-05-2014, 03:00 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
I've grown up among communists and anarchists. I became neither, but the misunderstandings for both are endless.

Anarchism is not chaos and violence, no matter what you have seen. Anarchism is not supposed to start working immediately. Anarchists are hoping that people's minds will gradually change.

It's important to mention here that there are tons of different types of anarchism, with some being more radical and/or violent than others.

I don't understand the logic behind "people need to be governed because they do stupid things". Has anyone ever bothered to read why people who support anarchism and communism think they would work? Communists have very elaborate propaganda and education plans for that reason exactly.

(And sorry Rev, but Day Z is not an anarchy simulation, simply because anarchy cannot simply exist tomorrow, it needs years, maybe even centuries. A baby cannot be born too early. It will either be dead or deformed.)

Communism and anarchism aim at the exact same thing; anarchy. They just have different plans for achieving it.

I repeat, I'm neither a communist nor an anarchist. It's just that I've had years of conversations with them, so I present all the counterarguments that most of you seem to ignore.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
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15-05-2014, 04:55 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 03:00 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  I've grown up among communists and anarchists. I became neither, but the misunderstandings for both are endless.

Anarchism is not chaos and violence, no matter what you have seen. Anarchism is not supposed to start working immediately. Anarchists are hoping that people's minds will gradually change.
It's an extreme mistake to expect "minds to change" - which means changing human nature; not going to happen.



Quote: I don't understand the logic behind "people need to be governed because they do stupid things". Has anyone ever bothered to read why people who support anarchism and communism think they would work? Communists have very elaborate propaganda and education plans for that reason exactly.
Yes, many people have read about that, it hasn't helped at all.

Quote:(And sorry Rev, but Day Z is not an anarchy simulation, simply because anarchy cannot simply exist tomorrow, it needs years, maybe even centuries. A baby cannot be born too early. It will either be dead or deformed.)
That's why we have to dismiss anarchy.

Quote:Communism and anarchism aim at the exact same thing; anarchy. They just have different plans for achieving it.
I don't want to fight with you too much, (I do want to fight with you a little bit)... but this is unbelievably inaccurate.
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15-05-2014, 05:12 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 04:55 AM)Juv Wrote:  It's an extreme mistake to expect "minds to change" - which means changing human nature; not going to happen.

So, you mean that minds can't change? Education plays an important role in how human nature is expressed.
Even though I don't believe it could ever happen, I guess they think that, since propaganda can turn people into killers, it can also turn them into harmless creatures.

Imagine someone 2000 years ago saying that "minds can't change". Women will always be inferior, slaves will always exist everywhere. Wouldn't it sound silly today?

(15-05-2014 04:55 AM)Juv Wrote:  That's why we have to dismiss anarchy.

We have to dismiss something because it needs a lot of work and time? What kind of logic is that? I do dismiss anarchy, but not for this reason. That's just the lazy thing to do.

(15-05-2014 04:55 AM)Juv Wrote:  I don't want to fight with you too much, (I do want to fight with you a little bit)... but this is unbelievably inaccurate.

Could you tell me what the difference would be between an anarchist society and a communist one in its final phase?

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
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15-05-2014, 05:55 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 05:12 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  So, you mean that minds can't change? Education plays an important role in how human nature is expressed.
Even though I don't believe it could ever happen, I guess they think that, since propaganda can turn people into killers, it can also turn them into harmless creatures.
You're right about that way of thinking.
However, there is an overestimation with the effect of education on personality.

The people who have been mistakenly thought of as transformed into killers in the past, have been people capable of intense violence to begin with.
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15-05-2014, 05:58 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 05:12 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 04:55 AM)Juv Wrote:  [quote='Juv' pid='569847' dateline='1400151332']That's why we have to dismiss anarchy.

We have to dismiss something because it needs a lot of work and time? What kind of logic is that? I do dismiss anarchy, but not for this reason. That's just the lazy thing to do.
At this point, there is no evidence that anarchy is a practical way of social organization.
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15-05-2014, 06:02 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 05:12 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Could you tell me what the difference would be between an anarchist society and a communist one in its final phase?
A Communist society would have a central power which attempts to keep order. An Anarchist society wouldn't tolerate a central power.
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15-05-2014, 06:14 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 05:55 AM)Juv Wrote:  You're right about that way of thinking.
However, there is an overestimation with the effect of education on personality.

The people who have been mistakenly thought of as transformed into killers in the past, have been people capable of intense violence to begin with.

There is still evidence though that most psychopaths and extremely violent people have been abused as children.
In any case, I haven't seen any conclusive study, so I can't fully support any of the two viewpoints.

(15-05-2014 06:02 AM)Juv Wrote:  A Communist society would have a central power which attempts to keep order. An Anarchist society wouldn't tolerate a central power.

Maybe I should have noted that I'm talking about Marxism here, I thought it was obvious. Marx talked about the "final phase" of communism, where the state is not needed anymore, thus, no central power exists.
What you are talking about is the dictatorship of the proletariat, the "first phase" of communism, the phase which anarchists consider redundant.

Contrary to popular belief, there has never ever been an actual communist country. There have only been attempts for communism that stopped at the dictatorship of the proletariat or at socialism.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
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