Ignorance about anarchism
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15-05-2014, 09:34 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 05:12 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 04:55 AM)Juv Wrote:  I don't want to fight with you too much, (I do want to fight with you a little bit)... but this is unbelievably inaccurate.

Could you tell me what the difference would be between an anarchist society and a communist one in its final phase?


By the definition you are using no communist state ever could exist. But you are right in that final stage communism is anarchy the difference is at least Marx had a plan to get there. It was a bad plan (it has repeatedly failed) and much like anarchy is at best a pipedream and at worst is a false mirage that lead humanity to drinking sand in the desert.

With a communist you can have a discussion as to how and why same with Anarchy lite (aka libertarians) but with full on Anarchists no they have no answers for anything except to wish it was so. Funnily the most stable, successful, prosperous, and free nations in the world are very heavily regulated with a strong safety net not the ones closest to the Anarchist ideal.

As to the OP please explain how a true Anarchy would prevent a group like MS13 from rounding people up and making them slaves?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-05-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 09:34 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 05:12 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Could you tell me what the difference would be between an anarchist society and a communist one in its final phase?


By the definition you are using no communist state ever could exist. But you are right in that final stage communism is anarchy the difference is at least Marx had a plan to get there. It was a bad plan (it has repeatedly failed) and much like anarchy is at best a pipedream and at worst is a false mirage that lead humanity to drinking sand in the desert.

With a communist you can have a discussion as to how and why same with Anarchy lite (aka libertarians) but with full on Anarchists no they have no answers for anything except to wish it was so. Funnily the most stable, successful, prosperous, and free nations in the world are very heavily regulated with a strong safety net not the ones closest to the Anarchist ideal.

The anarchists I've spoken to totally have no answers. I remember a conversation once:

-How do you think you can change the world as anarchists?
-We don't expect it to change now, we make gradual changes.
-Yeah, but how?
-By talking to people, organizing events...
-This way it may take thousands of years to finally get to an anarchist society.
-Yeah, so?

Laugh out load

"Heavy regulation" is almost the motto of the dictatorship of the proletariat Tongue

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15-05-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 11:08 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 09:34 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  By the definition you are using no communist state ever could exist. But you are right in that final stage communism is anarchy the difference is at least Marx had a plan to get there. It was a bad plan (it has repeatedly failed) and much like anarchy is at best a pipedream and at worst is a false mirage that lead humanity to drinking sand in the desert.

With a communist you can have a discussion as to how and why same with Anarchy lite (aka libertarians) but with full on Anarchists no they have no answers for anything except to wish it was so. Funnily the most stable, successful, prosperous, and free nations in the world are very heavily regulated with a strong safety net not the ones closest to the Anarchist ideal.

The anarchists I've spoken to totally have no answers. I remember a conversation once:

-How do you think you can change the world as anarchists?
-We don't expect it to change now, we make gradual changes.
-Yeah, but how?
-By talking to people, organizing events...
-This way it may take thousands of years to finally get to an anarchist society.
-Yeah, so?

Laugh out load

"Heavy regulation" is almost the motto of the dictatorship of the proletariat Tongue

Yes but there is nuance there as not all regulations are good and not all are bad. Clean air and water regulations would be a good thing for most people, don't you think?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-05-2014, 11:14 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 11:11 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 11:08 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  The anarchists I've spoken to totally have no answers. I remember a conversation once:

-How do you think you can change the world as anarchists?
-We don't expect it to change now, we make gradual changes.
-Yeah, but how?
-By talking to people, organizing events...
-This way it may take thousands of years to finally get to an anarchist society.
-Yeah, so?

Laugh out load

"Heavy regulation" is almost the motto of the dictatorship of the proletariat Tongue

Yes but there is nuance there as not all regulations are good and not all are bad. Clean air and water regulations would be a good thing for most people, don't you think?

And that is where me and communism disagree Tongue

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15-05-2014, 05:00 PM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2014 05:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 03:00 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Communism and anarchism aim at the exact same thing; anarchy. They just have different plans for achieving it.

I think that's correct. Which is why I find both ideals equally appealing. Problem is for either to work everybody gotta be Jesus. Now I know I am Jesus but there are still a shitload of pricks and assholes out there who aren't. Socialism is the only thing that works. All there is to argue about is the degree.

(15-05-2014 11:44 AM)frankksj Wrote:  My debt to the US came at birth and lasts for life because, ...

Nope. Move out of the US and renounce your citizenship.

(15-05-2014 11:44 AM)frankksj Wrote:  I married a non-US citizen and am just frantically trying to get a 2nd citizenship so I can renounce my US citizenship ...

Why wait? Move out of the US and renounce your citizenship now and be a man without a country. That's what a true libertarian would do.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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15-05-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
Now that Frank has been removed maybe we can get back to the original discussion.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-05-2014, 03:02 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 09:34 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  By the definition you are using no communist state ever could exist. But you are right in that final stage communism is anarchy the difference is at least Marx had a plan to get there. It was a bad plan (it has repeatedly failed) and much like anarchy is at best a pipedream and at worst is a false mirage that lead humanity to drinking sand in the desert.

With a communist you can have a discussion as to how and why same with Anarchy lite (aka libertarians) but with full on Anarchists no they have no answers for anything except to wish it was so. Funnily the most stable, successful, prosperous, and free nations in the world are very heavily regulated with a strong safety net not the ones closest to the Anarchist ideal.

As to the OP please explain how a true Anarchy would prevent a group like MS13 from rounding people up and making them slaves?
Anarchy means WITHOUT RULERS, not without rules! There can only be real rules made if there is no central authority which can set, enforce and violate rules at will.
Marx was very, very vague about how would that central authority gradually die away. He had no idea how to achieve a productivity that would make people truly independent. All this labor movement... Human labor is bullshit! It only slows the machines down.

Anarchists have no answers? That is like saying, you don't know who that girl will be dating? Then there must be a central rapist who will rape her. Government's tax and public sector is the economic equivalent of forced marriage.

As for the supposedly prosperous nations, I don't know what do you mean. They all have a huge public sector that controls all the media and they all have a huge national debt to enslave future generations.

What? Groups like MS13 rounding people up? What about groups like the U.S. army rounding people up, don't you worry about that? Geez, what did happen when a senator paid by Chinese solar energy barons tried to take over the Bundy ranch? The ranchers grabbed their guns. That's right. Even common people like you or me can have guns and can defend ourselves. We can even organize ourselves into voluntary defense brigades to take out any idiots like MS13 who would like to play king of the hill. No hills, no kings. Freedom for you is freedom for me.
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16-05-2014, 03:10 AM
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(14-05-2014 05:05 PM)NL Atheist Wrote:  I'd like to let everyone know that, while anarchism is a radical political position, it does not advocate chaos. The way I see it, it promotes more individual thinking and cooperation because people no longer rely on people to tell them what to do, when to do it and how to do it. How many of you know something about anarchism? How many of you are veterans and how many don't know a single thing about it?

Which doesnt work because there is no incentive to cooperation.

We have been through your concept of society 5000 years ago.

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16-05-2014, 03:12 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2014 03:25 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(15-05-2014 05:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think that's correct. Which is why I find both ideals equally appealing. Problem is for either to work everybody gotta be Jesus. Now I know I am Jesus but there are still a shitload of pricks and assholes out there who aren't. Socialism is the only thing that works. All there is to argue about is the degree.
Yes, there are pricks and assholes out there. And the first moment you even think of having a central power, a watchman over society, they all flock to apply for the job!

What is the difference between nazism, communism and socialism? Nazism is national socialism. Communism is international socialism. What is socialism? Socialism is taking our things by armed people for a made-up collective entity under bullshit pretense of your own good.
Socialism does not work, because the state does not produce anything at all, it does is mugging people and wasting wealth. Socialism works despite of itself, not because of itself.

(15-05-2014 05:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Nope. Move out of the US and renounce your citizenship.

Why wait? Move out of the US and renounce your citizenship now and be a man without a country. That's what a true libertarian would do.
To that I always want to respond,
Why should I move? They're the ones who suck!

(16-05-2014 03:10 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Which doesnt work because there is no incentive to cooperation.

We have been through your concept of society 5000 years ago.
In that case, you won't be needing your clothes, pencils or computer that were developed, produced and distributed through cooperation of hundreds of thousands of people all across the world, in which government had no hand at all, except making obstacles.
Economy is science too and if you deny economy, you pick and choose science the same way that creationists pick and choose from biology and geology.
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16-05-2014, 03:20 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2014 03:30 AM by The Germans are coming.)
RE: Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 03:12 AM)Luminon Wrote:  In that case, you won't be needing your clothes, pencils or computer that were developed, produced and distributed through cooperation of hundreds of thousands of people all across the world, in which government had no hand at all, except making obstacles.

Strawman

Quote:Economy is science too and if you deny economy, you pick and choose science the same way that creationists pick and choose from biology and geology.


No it isnt.

There is no consistent scientific theory for economics. Nothing that can be tested again and again over and over again like gravity can be tested by dropping things.
One can merely apply models with different outcomes.

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