Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
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17-06-2017, 02:50 PM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(17-06-2017 02:20 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(17-06-2017 01:23 PM)pablo Wrote:  Either way, given the method of killing himself, it was relatively painless and peaceful.
A "one off" suggestion could be enough for someone who might have access to a gun, while relentless badgering could be what it takes for someone to do it with, something most of us have access to... a tailpipe.

A gun, a bottle of pills, a sharp knife or razor, a rope or belt...we aren't really going to say that it's okay to encourage someone who may be at the edge mentally? Or are we?

No, I was just pointing out that there could be different levels of encouragement depending on the method used.
For instance, I know for a fact that I'm someone who shouldn't own a gun so a quick "why don't you go shoot yourself" at the right time could be disastrous. but given enough repeated encouragement (and probably booze too) well...we already have three cars.
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17-06-2017, 02:57 PM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(17-06-2017 02:50 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(17-06-2017 02:20 PM)Anjele Wrote:  A gun, a bottle of pills, a sharp knife or razor, a rope or belt...we aren't really going to say that it's okay to encourage someone who may be at the edge mentally? Or are we?

No, I was just pointing out that there could be different levels of encouragement depending on the method used.
For instance, I know for a fact that I'm someone who shouldn't own a gun so a quick "why don't you go shoot yourself" at the right time could be disastrous. but given enough repeated encouragement (and probably booze too) well...we already have three cars.

And my point has been...how much encouragement does a person need to follow through and do people have the right to test that threshold?

We can't know who is on the edge or what method they have available.

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18-06-2017, 01:58 AM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
Earlier this year there was a discussion about freedom od speech and a lot of posters pointed out how important it is to have absolute free speech as in "nothing a pserson says should be prohibited (by law), because words dont harm people".

Now, please give me the opportunity to play devils advocate here, so i can understand the position of absolute free speech better:

Killing ones self is not illegal. So how can it be illegal to ask another person to do something not illegal?

She did harm the guy, she just talked to him/texted him. Its not her responsibility what he guy does out of it, even if he has some mental troubles, is it?

What was the argument of the judge? How can anyone commit manslaugher by just talking to someone else?

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18-06-2017, 02:15 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2017 02:21 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(18-06-2017 01:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Earlier this year there was a discussion about freedom od speech and a lot of posters pointed out how important it is to have absolute free speech as in "nothing a pserson says should be prohibited (by law), because words dont harm people".

Now, please give me the opportunity to play devils advocate here, so i can understand the position of absolute free speech better:

Killing ones self is not illegal. So how can it be illegal to ask another person to do something not illegal?

She did harm the guy, she just talked to him/texted him. Its not her responsibility what he guy does out of it, even if he has some mental troubles, is it?

What was the argument of the judge? How can anyone commit manslaugher by just talking to someone else?

She was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, correct?

Now, I am by no means a layer, though I do regularly enjoy listening to Thomas Smith and Harvard educated lawyer Andrew Torrez on the Opening Arguments law podcast.


So, lets look at what we are talking about here.


Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as a DUI). The usual distinction from voluntary manslaughter is that involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "criminally negligent homicide") is a crime in which the victim's death is unintended.

As an illustration, consider the following scenario. Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Distraught, Dan heads to a local bar to drown his sorrows. After having five drinks, Dan jumps into his car and drives down the street at twice the posted speed limit. If Dan had killed Victor in a "heat of passion" at the time he discovered the affair, then he could be charged with voluntary manslaughter. However, if Dan instead accidentally hit and killed a pedestrian while driving recklessly and intoxicated, he could be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Elements of the Offense

Three elements must be satisfied in order for someone to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter:

  1. Someone was killed as a result of the defendant's actions.
  2. The act either was inherently dangerous to others or done with reckless disregard for human life.
  3. The defendant knew or should have known his or her conduct was a threat to the lives of others.


Charges of involuntary manslaughter often come in the wake of a deadly car crash caused by a motorist under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. While the motorist never intended to kill anyone, his or her negligence in operating a car while impaired is enough to meet the requirements of the charge.

Activities that are entirely legal can also result in involuntary manslaughter charges when carried out irresponsibly or recklessly. For example, if the operator of a dangerous carnival ride recklessly fails to ensure that all passengers are strapped in and people die as a result, the operator could face penalties for involuntary manslaughter.


http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-cha...rview.html


Well, the boyfriend is dead. If the prosecutor was able to convince the jury that the girlfriend was aware of the boyfriend's mental state and/or troubles (such as, he was on medication for chronic depression or seeing a psychiatrist, and she knew of it), and recklessly disregarded that to cause him intentional suffering and harm? It doesn't seem like a stretch to me that she could be convicted of involuntary manslaughter, at least from my very layman perspective.

Apparently, this wasn't too hard to do.

TAUNTON, Mass. — For a case that had played out in thousands of text messages, what made Michelle Carter’s behavior a crime, a judge concluded, came in a single phone call. Just as her friend Conrad Roy III stepped out of the truck he had filled with lethal fumes, Ms. Carter told him over the phone to get back in the cab and then listened to him die without trying to help him.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/su....html?_r=0


That is fucking cold.


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18-06-2017, 02:32 AM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(18-06-2017 01:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Earlier this year there was a discussion about freedom od speech and a lot of posters pointed out how important it is to have absolute free speech as in "nothing a pserson says should be prohibited (by law), because words dont harm people".

Now, please give me the opportunity to play devils advocate here, so i can understand the position of absolute free speech better:

Killing ones self is not illegal. So how can it be illegal to ask another person to do something not illegal?

But killing others is illegal and so is talking others into committing suicide going by judge verdict: A Massachusetts judge has found Michelle Carter guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

Quote:She did harm the guy, she just talked to him/texted him. Its not her responsibility what he guy does out of it, even if he has some mental troubles, is it?

It wasn't just texting but a lengthy text message history between Roy and his girlfriend Michelle Carter, in which Carter repeatedly urges him to commit suicide.. And given their close relation and her knowledge of his psychical state I would argue that it was her responsibility. She didn't say something that can push someone over the edge accidentally, she repeatedly urged guy to kill himself knowing of his mental problems. No dose of devil advocating will help here.

Quote:What was the argument of the judge? How can anyone commit manslaugher by just talking to someone else?

It isn't just talking. It's repeated action done with knowledge of other person mental problems. However distasteful I find her behavior she still can get away scot-free as going by other part of article she isn't found guilty yet: Carter faces one count of manslaughter and could face up to 20 years in prison if found guilty.

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18-06-2017, 02:41 AM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(18-06-2017 02:32 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(18-06-2017 01:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Earlier this year there was a discussion about freedom od speech and a lot of posters pointed out how important it is to have absolute free speech as in "nothing a pserson says should be prohibited (by law), because words dont harm people".

Now, please give me the opportunity to play devils advocate here, so i can understand the position of absolute free speech better:

Killing ones self is not illegal. So how can it be illegal to ask another person to do something not illegal?

But killing others is illegal and so is talking others into committing suicide going by judge verdict: A Massachusetts judge has found Michelle Carter guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

Quote:She did harm the guy, she just talked to him/texted him. Its not her responsibility what he guy does out of it, even if he has some mental troubles, is it?

It wasn't just texting but a lengthy text message history between Roy and his girlfriend Michelle Carter, in which Carter repeatedly urges him to commit suicide.. And given their close relation and her knowledge of his psychical state I would argue that it was her responsibility. She didn't say something that can push someone over the edge accidentally, she repeatedly urged guy to kill himself knowing of his mental problems. No dose of devil advocating will help here.

Quote:What was the argument of the judge? How can anyone commit manslaugher by just talking to someone else?

It isn't just talking. It's repeated action done with knowledge of other person mental problems. However distasteful I find her behavior she still can get away scot-free as going by other part of article she isn't found guilty yet: Carter faces one count of manslaughter and could face up to 20 years in prison if found guilty.

This is all, of course, coming from non lawyers. It makes sense, I can follow the logic, and I'm inclined to side with the judge's verdict on this one. This is not as simple as someone posting 'hey, go rob a bank' on Facebook and then being liable when someone goes and does that. However, the New York Times article I link to made it sound like the Judge was of a minority opinion, so much so that even a representative of the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union, a civil rights advocacy group) was taken aback by it. It most certainly will be appealed. So whether or not the verdict is good law, I'm not in a position to say. All I can say is that, from my own layman understanding and sideline perspective, I understand and am inclined to agree with the Judge on this one. Maybe there will be a follow up episode of Opening Arguments podcast where Andrew Torrez does a take on this that could change my opinion, but I don't know.

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18-06-2017, 02:47 AM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(18-06-2017 02:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-06-2017 02:32 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But killing others is illegal and so is talking others into committing suicide going by judge verdict: A Massachusetts judge has found Michelle Carter guilty of involuntary manslaughter.


It wasn't just texting but a lengthy text message history between Roy and his girlfriend Michelle Carter, in which Carter repeatedly urges him to commit suicide.. And given their close relation and her knowledge of his psychical state I would argue that it was her responsibility. She didn't say something that can push someone over the edge accidentally, she repeatedly urged guy to kill himself knowing of his mental problems. No dose of devil advocating will help here.


It isn't just talking. It's repeated action done with knowledge of other person mental problems. However distasteful I find her behavior she still can get away scot-free as going by other part of article she isn't found guilty yet: Carter faces one count of manslaughter and could face up to 20 years in prison if found guilty.

This is all, of course, coming from non lawyers. It makes sense, I can follow the logic, and I'm inclined to side with the judge's verdict on this one. This is not as simple as someone posting 'hey, go rob a bank' on Facebook and then being liable when someone goes and does that. However, the New York Times article I link to made it sound like the Judge was of a minority opinion, so much so that even a representative of the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union, a civil rights advocacy group) was taken aback by it. It most certainly will be appealed. So whether or not the verdict is good law, I'm not in a position to say. All I can say is that, from my own layman understanding and sideline perspective, I understand and am inclined to agree with the Judge on this one. Maybe there will be a follow up episode of Opening Arguments podcast where Andrew Torrez does a take on this that could change my opinion, but I don't know.

Of course. I'm not trained in law but any other verdict than guilty wouldn't fit with me. Only thing I'm concerned with is possibility of setting precedent and then taking in into extreme where whatever you will say will be ground for prosecution. Seems unlikely though.

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18-06-2017, 02:54 AM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
I heard about this not long ago. Frankly, I don't know what to think about it... I'm conflicted...

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18-06-2017, 03:02 AM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(18-06-2017 02:47 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Of course. I'm not trained in law but any other verdict than guilty wouldn't fit with me. Only thing I'm concerned with is possibility of setting precedent and then taking in into extreme where whatever you will say will be ground for prosecution. Seems unlikely though.

I'm inclined to agree with you. The Times article made it seem like outside lawyers and pundits were afraid of the potential expansion in the definition of manslaughter, even though to me it appears to fit within the framework already. It also goes against the assumption of free will, but likewise, those with depreciated capacity can and are already accounted for in judicial precedent. This seems like a very narrow interpretation that wouldn't open up every nonchalant Facebook post to legal culpability. The two had a years long relationship, the girl was acutely aware of the boy's condition; suicidal depression. At the critical moment, while he was talking to her (not texting) during the suicide attempt, he backed off and got out of his carbon-monoxide filling truck. During that moment, she told him to get back in. After she did, she listened to him die. She didn't try to stop him, she didn't try to call for medical assistance, or call his family. Her physical distance was immaterial.

All she had to do to save his life was literally nothing. Had she said nothing, had she not encouraged him back into the truck, that suicide attempt would have simply failed. He was out, indicating that part of him still wanted to live. But she, who was acutely aware of his conduction and the situation he was in, talked him back into truck. I don't know if that meets the legal definition of reckless endangerment, but that sure sounds like it to me.

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18-06-2017, 03:07 AM
RE: Illegal to urge someone to commit suicide
(18-06-2017 03:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-06-2017 02:47 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Of course. I'm not trained in law but any other verdict than guilty wouldn't fit with me. Only thing I'm concerned with is possibility of setting precedent and then taking in into extreme where whatever you will say will be ground for prosecution. Seems unlikely though.

I'm inclined to agree with you. The Times article made it seem like outside lawyers and pundits were afraid of the potential expansion in the definition of manslaughter, even though to me it appears to fit within the framework already. It also goes against the assumption of free will, but likewise, those with depreciated capacity can and are already accounted for in judicial precedent. This seems like a very narrow interpretation that wouldn't open up every nonchalant Facebook post to legal culpability. The two had a years long relationship, the girl was acutely aware of the boy's condition; suicidal depression. At the critical moment, while he was talking to her (not texting) during the suicide attempt, he backed off and got out of his carbon-monoxide filling truck. During that moment, she told him to get back in. After she did, she listened to him die. She didn't try to stop him, she didn't try to call for medical assistance, or call his family. Her physical distance was immaterial.

All she had to do to save his life was literally nothing. Had she said nothing, had she not encouraged him back into the truck, that suicide attempt would have simply failed. He was out, indicating that part of him still wanted to live. But she, who was acutely aware of his conduction and the situation he was in, talked him back into truck. I don't know if that meets the legal definition of reckless endangerment, but that sure sounds like it to me.

Nothing to add here.

I'm still stunned at coldness of her act though.

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