Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
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02-02-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:16 PM)BryanS Wrote:  But they are justifying the violent response by explaining it away, and they are taking the position that Milo "should not be allowed to speak".

Literally no one is trying to justify the violence. Nor "explain it away." Nor condone it in any way. And no one has yet to say that Milo shouldn't be allowed to express his opinions, but he does NOT have the right to do it wherever and whenever he wants. He can't come to a business and simply start spouting off his bullshit. Freedom of speech means you can have and vocalize your opinions as you please in the public sphere, but you don't have the right to go wherever you want to say it. Twitter can set a code of conduct, as can your workplace, or even this forum. And guess what? Your freedom of speech is NOT violated if you are banned from twitter or fired or banned from the forum for hate speech. Your freedom of speech would be violated if the government jailed you for what you say or if the government told you there were things you couldn't say.

He was an invited guest. His invitation wasn't revoked. Maniacs with weapons destroyed property and attacked people until they fled. How do you not see the difference? I think you don't want to.

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02-02-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:16 PM)BryanS Wrote:  But they are justifying the violent response by explaining it away, and they are taking the position that Milo "should not be allowed to speak".

Literally no one is trying to justify the violence. Nor "explain it away." Nor condone it in any way. And no one has yet to say that Milo shouldn't be allowed to express his opinions, but he does NOT have the right to do it wherever and whenever he wants. He can't come to a business and simply start spouting off his bullshit. Freedom of speech means you can have and vocalize your opinions as you please in the public sphere, but you don't have the right to go wherever you want to say it. Twitter can set a code of conduct, as can your workplace, or even this forum. And guess what? Your freedom of speech is NOT violated if you are banned from twitter or fired or banned from the forum for hate speech. Your freedom of speech would be violated if the government jailed you for what you say or if the government told you there were things you couldn't say.
The bolded part--in principle, I agree. But that is not what happened to Milo here, is it? So I am not sure why you keep hammering this point. He was not blocked by a private entity (but since we are talking about government action, you should note that the courts treat state schools like UC Berkely differently than private schools, because they are in fact closely tied to the government). Milo was blocked by a mob who broke the law in order to stop his speech. That is a violation of free speech rights.
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02-02-2017, 03:33 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:24 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You don't understand what free speech is. Free speech means the government can't criminalize what you say or your opinions. So the government can't levy any restrictions on your speech. But private companies can. So can universities. And having the freedom to speak your mind does NOT mean you are free from the repercussions of what you said.

Don't straw man me with bullshit when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and when you don't know my actual position.

I do understand freedom of speech and that you oppose it.

Milo's speech was inhibited by a violent mob. Breaking the law in order to stop someone from speaking is a violation of free speech rights. Are you saying the it is OK to break the law to prevent someone from speaking? Milo's speech wasn't limited by the school or the government--you are the one bringing up a straw argument here, not me.

As has already been discussed (which you seem to have skipped), freedom of speech does not guarantee you freedom from repercussions.

You are free to speak your mind, and people are free to protest it. Even if a person decides to do so violently, it doesn't violate your freedom of speech even if they broke the law by doing you harm. Your freedom of speech is ONLY violated by the government.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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02-02-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:24 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I do understand freedom of speech and that you oppose it.

Milo's speech was inhibited by a violent mob. Breaking the law in order to stop someone from speaking is a violation of free speech rights. Are you saying the it is OK to break the law to prevent someone from speaking? Milo's speech wasn't limited by the school or the government--you are the one bringing up a straw argument here, not me.

As has already been discussed (which you seem to have skipped), freedom of speech does not guarantee you freedom from repercussions.

You are free to speak your mind, and people are free to protest it. Even if a person decides to do so violently, it doesn't violate your freedom of speech even if they broke the law by doing you harm. Your freedom of speech is ONLY violated by the government.

I'm going to start carrying more rocks then.

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02-02-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:31 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Literally no one is trying to justify the violence. Nor "explain it away." Nor condone it in any way. And no one has yet to say that Milo shouldn't be allowed to express his opinions, but he does NOT have the right to do it wherever and whenever he wants. He can't come to a business and simply start spouting off his bullshit. Freedom of speech means you can have and vocalize your opinions as you please in the public sphere, but you don't have the right to go wherever you want to say it. Twitter can set a code of conduct, as can your workplace, or even this forum. And guess what? Your freedom of speech is NOT violated if you are banned from twitter or fired or banned from the forum for hate speech. Your freedom of speech would be violated if the government jailed you for what you say or if the government told you there were things you couldn't say.
The bolded part--in principle, I agree. But that is not what happened to Milo here, is it? So I am not sure why you keep hammering this point. He was not blocked by a private entity (but since we are talking about government action, you should note that the courts treat state schools like UC Berkely differently than private schools, because they are in fact closely tied to the government). Milo was blocked by a mob who broke the law in order to stop his speech. That is a violation of free speech rights.

As some of us have already said, mistake one was inviting the asshole to speak. But the protestors have, at the very least, the same rights. Literally no one has condoned or defended the violence. What we object to is the insinuation that the violence was perpetrated by the "left" and that Milo's freedom of speech was violated. Milo's freedom of speech would have been violated if the government stopped him from speaking, but that isn't what happened.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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02-02-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:36 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  As has already been discussed (which you seem to have skipped), freedom of speech does not guarantee you freedom from repercussions.

You are free to speak your mind, and people are free to protest it. Even if a person decides to do so violently, it doesn't violate your freedom of speech even if they broke the law by doing you harm. Your freedom of speech is ONLY violated by the government.

I'm going to start carrying more rocks then.

Go ahead. You seem like the kind of asshole who would throw a rock because you can't use words to defend your illogical bullshit. You will be violating other laws by being violent.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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02-02-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:24 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I do understand freedom of speech and that you oppose it.

Milo's speech was inhibited by a violent mob. Breaking the law in order to stop someone from speaking is a violation of free speech rights. Are you saying the it is OK to break the law to prevent someone from speaking? Milo's speech wasn't limited by the school or the government--you are the one bringing up a straw argument here, not me.

As has already been discussed (which you seem to have skipped), freedom of speech does not guarantee you freedom from repercussions.

You are free to speak your mind, and people are free to protest it. Even if a person decides to do so violently, it doesn't violate your freedom of speech even if they broke the law by doing you harm. Your freedom of speech is ONLY violated by the government.

That point is not lost on me, but it almost seems like you are saying anyone can do anything they please. But those consequences should be legal consequences, not unlawful actions. I am not arguing for a right to be heard. I am arguing for a right to speech. It is the left who have at times demanded a right to be heard when they protest in a way that interferes with others rights (like blocking traffic and interfering with others' daily lives).
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02-02-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:33 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I'm not sure why it's relevant, but on Dec. 8th we only declared war on Japan. Germany declared war on us on the 11th. We on them a few hours later.

And for the record, even China was taking in Jewish refugees when we were still turning them down. And initially we didn't feel the urge to go to war until it was clear that our self interests were at stake. Our collective sympathy towards others being wronged didn't evolve until later.

We should have a funny as fuck button next to the like button. ... Consider ... Actually maybe we should have a dude stop it you're killing me button, might prevent some of the bickering here much as I enjoy watching it in some sorta perverse way.

#sigh
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02-02-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:37 PM)BryanS Wrote:  That point is not lost on me, but it almost seems like you are saying anyone can do anything they please. But those consequences should be legal consequences, not unlawful actions. I am not arguing for a right to be heard. I am arguing for a right to speech. It is the left who have at times demanded a right to be heard when they protest in a way that interferes with others rights (like blocking traffic and interfering with others' daily lives).

If a protest isn't inconvenient on some level, it's not much of a protest. Convenient protests are much easier to ignore.

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02-02-2017, 03:42 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 03:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:12 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  So how do you differentiate what Milo says and what Hitler said 85 years ago? Do you ever draw a line in the sand at any point and say...this is wrong I won't stand for this? Just curious.

Hitler used violence, so the moment Milo starts rounding ethnic groups up for gas chambers I will put on my uniform and take down his "troll army". I somehow don't think it will come to that because he speaks at Berkley though...

Can't believe I had to explain the difference between Hitler and a gay Jew...

Read about his speeches before he became the leader of Germany. You'd find a lot of similarity between Milo and Hitler.

It's Hitler's pre 1938 speeches that laid the groundwork for his sick legacy and if people had risen up against this demagogue and fought against his tyranny from day one many millions of people wouldn't have died.

Are we not reading history books anymore?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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