Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
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02-02-2017, 06:54 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
Actually the Breitbart *thing* is a contrived *act* by a supposed comedian. This case is not really a free-speech issue, (although personally i would have let him spew his crap, as he's a fool).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-02-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 06:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 06:03 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  This thread hasn't been up more than 12 hours and it's already at 19 pages.
Jesus some shit must have gone the fuck down.

I learned what "illiberal" means. Thumbsup

Oh, I had another comment. The problem with these protests is that they are counterproductive, all they do is line the pocket of the "World's Biggest Dick" and galvanize his support even more so he can line even deeper pockets. Dick wants the press. Even better if it's sensational press. Which is another reason why the bad hombres could have been plants. It's what I'd do.

He's already filed for 20/20 election so that means he start collecting donations and move money around through his campaign.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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02-02-2017, 07:05 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 05:29 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 03:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "That said, I still don't personally on any level condone *violence of any kind regardless of what the rhetoric is. "

I haven't seen anyone here condone it.

Where did I say directly anyone did and or how did I imply anyone did? I was just making a statement that is true for me 100% of the time.

Quote:"I also understand this person is divisive and generally a dick, but then why ask or allow him to speak in the first place?"

That is what some of us are arguing is the ultimate mistake, letting him speak there. Stupid move. Stupid move to invite him. Stupid move to let him. Stupid move to listen him.

"Why do you think they "expect and want violence"?"

Because they can point to the violence that pops up to try and paint themselves as the victims. As Emma put it, it gives them a convenient excuse to play martyr. "Oh woe is us! We just wanted to express our bigoted and hateful opinions and look at how we were treated! Those angry mean liberals just don't want free speech for anyone but themselves."

Thanks for your replies.

You and a few others in this thread have suggested because of Milo's position on lots of issues, he shouldn't be allowed to speak at a university, in the first place. How does that not end up being the same thing? 'Mean liberal run university wants to silence our freedom of speech'. A good friend once taught me that there are excuses and reasons. The university used the violence as an excuse to uninvited him to speak and he used the protests and violence as a reason to silence him. Both aren't entirely wrong, but they're not entirely right either.

And a university, of all places, is the place to have that speech. Couldn't agree with you point more.


Quote:I struggle with this myself. My liberal sensibility agrees they shouldn't be allowed to speak. But then a rational part of me says that they already have a venue to speak mostly unfettered to their websites, blogs, Facebook groups, followers and the like, who knows if they erase comments from rational people and leave the whackadoo comments which further their cause...Let them speak and let others speak after them, refuting the claims they make and describing how divisive their rhetoric is.

Again, couldn't agree more.

"Shut up" isn't an argument. The position that Milo is so objectionable that he needs to be silenced allows him to go back and say to his followers that his opponents have no arguments to counter him. Had he been allowed to speak, Milo's objectionable views could have been laid bare and challenged in a way that his other venues would not have done. These violent protests actually suite him just fine. Jonah Goldberg, a conservative writer, commented that Milo feeds off these protests in an unhealthy way. As I quoted above, the remedy for objectionable speech is more free speech.

Many on the left and on this thread think the only way to deal with Milo is to shut him up. Well, he will not be shut up. And he will not suffer consequences for his speech until he is challenged properly. Shutting him down only strengthens his position with the hard right wing.

The problem with the "shut up" argument is that it assumes there is no need to refute Milo. But we have president Trump, don't we? There apparently are a lot of people who DO need to be persuaded. Shutting down speech does not persuade anyone and puts the opposition on defensive.

To those who don't think Milo should be allowed to speak--if you want to see more of people like him and if you want to reelect Trump, keep responding just this way to people you find objectionable.
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02-02-2017, 07:07 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 06:56 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 06:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I learned what "illiberal" means. Thumbsup

Oh, I had another comment. The problem with these protests is that they are counterproductive, all they do is line the pocket of the "World's Biggest Dick" and galvanize his support even more so he can line even deeper pockets. Dick wants the press. Even better if it's sensational press. Which is another reason why the bad hombres could have been plants. It's what I'd do.

He's already filed for 20/20 election so that means he start collecting donations and move money around through his campaign.

The story I read about that suggested it was a way to shut down 503© non-profits campaigning against him. They now cannot run political ad campaigns against him without putting their non-profit status in jeopardy for his entire term in office.
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02-02-2017, 07:12 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 12:40 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 12:28 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I think he led the tirade (one of many) against Leslie Jones? Which led to the alt-right hack of her email and the leaking of her personal photos.

Yes, that's correct. It was Leslie Jones. And before that, he was targeting people in the gamergate fiasco. And he's written plenty of hateful pieces for the Breitbart rag. He's not new to this game. He should not be allowed to speak at some venues.

As much as I find his message obnoxious, I shudder to think of the day governmental entities restrict speech based on content (aside from the obvious -- threats, incitement, etc).

The government has no business approving or disapproving public speech.
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02-02-2017, 07:22 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 07:33 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 07:07 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 06:56 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  He's already filed for 20/20 election so that means he start collecting donations and move money around through his campaign.

The story I read about that suggested it was a way to shut down 503© non-profits campaigning against him. They now cannot run political ad campaigns against him without putting their non-profit status in jeopardy for his entire term in office.

Now that is exactly what the "World's Biggest Dick" would do. I humbly apologize for doubting him. ... Wait are we talking about the other contender for the title now? My bad. I thought we were still talking about the dick who's making bank off the protests. I hadn't actually yet thought to consider if that would work on a much larger scale. Consider I guess it could. Be a lot harder to hide and a lot riskier. Not worth the risk unless there was like a gazillion layers of plausible deniability. Probably not even then unless you got the Illuminati to do it.

#sigh
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02-02-2017, 08:02 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 01:52 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 01:29 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I dislike the term "illiberal" and I dislike it even more when it's combined with "left". You're either left or your not. There are degrees of "left", but what's intended by "illiberal" is not a degree, but something different. So it should be given a different name. For the same reason a variation of "liberal" is inappropriate as well in my opinion.

The people who did this were neither left or right or liberal or conservative. I mean, they probably were among those, but it's beside the point. It's like saying people who accept evolution as fact are atheists. Well, some are, but the two have nothing to do with each other. These people who carried out the violence are just assholes.

As for Milo, I never heard of him before this thread, but it strikes me as highly inappropriate for a university to allow him to speak on its property. Yeah, free speech and all, but that's not freedom to speak anywhere and universities have the right to say "go somewhere else".

Are you postulating they were apolitical? That seems more wrong than any possible alternative, so if not, what? Where on the spectrum do they lie? To me, they are clearly top-left on the standard compass, which is opposite of liberal (otherwise known as illiberal) and left. And so I, and others, would call them the illiberal left.

[Image: 543px-Political_chart.svg.png]
I'm saying no can know what their political persuasion is and it's beside the point anyway. They're just assholes.

As for illiberal, why isn't "opposite of liberal" conservative? Consider

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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02-02-2017, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 08:41 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  And a university, of all places, is the place to have that speech. Couldn't agree with you point more.

Which would be why Berkeley invited/allowed him to speak.

(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  "Shut up" isn't an argument. The position that Milo is so objectionable that he needs to be silenced allows him to go back and say to his followers that his opponents have no arguments to counter him.

That's Milo's entire gimmick. He says it in every speech he gives-- how oppressed he is by the "left" who "can't argue" with his points, so they "have to shut him up". I don't think very many people on the left seriously believe he should be silenced... but that sure makes for a good story, doesn't it?

Edit to Add: Did you notice how he's wearing a bulletproof vest with POLICE on it, in the video? Because he's just soooooooo objectionable that those violent, gun-toting California liberals might just want to kill him, dontchaknow!

(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Had he been allowed to speak, Milo's objectionable views could have been laid bare and challenged in a way that his other venues would not have done.

He wasn't allowed to speak? Then what was the video of him speaking? Oh, you mean he was shut down mid-speech? How convenient for him! Then he gets to talk about how he's being silenced. Oh, the irony is thick.

(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  These violent protests actually suite him just fine. Jonah Goldberg, a conservative writer, commented that Milo feeds off these protests in an unhealthy way. As I quoted above, the remedy for objectionable speech is more free speech.

Of course it is. That's why he manufactures these sorts of things. You think he chose Berkeley at random? It's a symbol of Leftist thought, going back to before he was born.

(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Many on the left and on this thread think the only way to deal with Milo is to shut him up. Well, he will not be shut up.

Did I miss something? Who says that?

The only thing I saw said here was that his hateful speech may be inciting to violence and thus dangerous to others, and therefore it may be justified to prevent him from speaking in particular places where such things may occur... not that he needs to be "shut up" or silenced. You're just parroting his narrative.

(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  And he will not suffer consequences for his speech until he is challenged properly. Shutting him down only strengthens his position with the hard right wing.

Which is why he does it to himself.

(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  The problem with the "shut up" argument is that it assumes there is no need to refute Milo. But we have president Trump, don't we? There apparently are a lot of people who DO need to be persuaded. Shutting down speech does not persuade anyone and puts the opposition on defensive.

Yeah, I'm totally with you on this. That's why no one except for a few morons (and probably, I think, some paid/deliberate agitprop agents) wants to shut down his speech-- they want to yell things back at him when he speaks.

(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  To those who don't think Milo should be allowed to speak--if you want to see more of people like him and if you want to reelect Trump, keep responding just this way to people you find objectionable.

That's an excellent point. So as journalists like to say, "When you want to know what's really going on, you ask 'who benefits from this?', and follow the money."

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-02-2017, 08:38 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 08:02 PM)Impulse Wrote:  As for illiberal, why isn't "opposite of liberal" conservative? Consider

No, he means that calling them "liberal" is ironic, because they're not following liberal values, but rightwing/fascist values.

It's a form of the tu quoque argument.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-02-2017, 08:39 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 07:05 PM)BryanS Wrote:  To those who don't think Milo should be allowed to speak--if you want to see more of people like him and if you want to reelect Trump, keep responding just this way to people you find objectionable.

They need to be ignored. But I can understand how some people find that just too damn hard to do.

#sigh
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