Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
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02-02-2017, 10:24 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:00 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 09:53 AM)kineo Wrote:  Also, to add, Milo and his ilk should not be exempt from their speech. But those that provide the platform ought to bear the weight of the pain he causes people when he speaks. Protests and boycotts are my preferred course of action. I think violence gives people like you an out from thinking critically about what these people have to say, so you can blame the entire left for their actions.

Who are 'people like me'? Why do you assume I have not or cannot employ critical thinking skills?

Because you made this thread. Apparently with the supposition that liberals might support violence? When it should have been plenty evident that people are people, and some violent few, regardless of platform, will behave violently.
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02-02-2017, 10:25 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 10:04 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)"
^ a good indicator of your bias. Neoliberal?

People inciting violence (whether justified or not) against other people is NOT someone having their free speech violated. If the government stepped in and jailed people for saying what they wanted, that would be a free speech violation.

So, this isn't the "illberal left" shutting down anything. It isn't liberals doing it either. It is a group of assholes who got pissed off by another group of assholes doing shitty things.

I specifically use "illiberal left" to distinguish them from what I'd call "real liberals", because I don't want to be mistaken for these fools when I call myself a liberal or a classical liberal. If you don't like the term "illiberal left" then choose your own label. The label isn't particularly important, it's that is meant by that label. I think we have a real disagreement on what free-speech is though. The government's job is to ensure we have the ability to speak freely. It doesn't matter who prevents us from speaking our mind, if the government has not protecting our right to speak freely in a public space, or in a private space which we have been welcomed to or own, then our rights have been violated. It the same reason that protesters sometimes get arrested for intimidation. You have the right to call me an asshole, but you don't have the right to throw rocks at me for speaking my mind.

Also, what you call the "illiberal left" as a way of distinguishing between what you consider to be "real liberals" seems like a blatant no true Scotsman fallacy. Either they are to the political left, they are liberals, or they are part of the liberal left. Do you mean to try and equate the rioters with the "regressive" left as many neoliberals like to as a way of misrepresenting what they advocate for?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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02-02-2017, 10:26 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 10:06 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Eighty years ago the world went to war to fight bigotry, hate and fascism. You might have read about it.

Eighty years ago we went to war to defend ourselves against Japanese suicide-bombers and Nazi's who declared war on us. You might not have read about it. I did, however read the Bill of Rights.

If we hadn't gone to war to fight hate, bigotry and fascism we might not have a Bill of Rights today. Roosevelt declared war on Dec. 8th 1941. Germany and Japan didn't officially declare war on us.

Edit to add: Germany declared war on the US Dec. 11th.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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02-02-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
You always have to ask yourself: Who benefits from this?

Here it is the speaker, lots of people (me included) never heard of him before and now everyone knows him.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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02-02-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:20 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 10:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I specifically use "illiberal left" to distinguish them from what I'd call "real liberals", because I don't want to be mistaken for these fools when I call myself a liberal or a classical liberal. If you don't like the term "illiberal left" then choose your own label. The label isn't particularly important, it's that is meant by that label. I think we have a real disagreement on what free-speech is though. The government's job is to ensure we have the ability to speak freely. It doesn't matter who prevents us from speaking our mind, if the government has not protecting our right to speak freely in a public space, or in a private space which we have been welcomed to or own, then our rights have been violated. It the same reason that protesters sometimes get arrested for intimidation. You have the right to call me an asshole, but you don't have the right to throw rocks at me for speaking my mind.

And yet "throwing rocks at you for speaking your mind" isn't a violation of your right to free speech. Only the government can violate your right to free speech.

But you labeling the rioters and violent actors as members of the political "left" is just you being an asshole.

Just because you don't like the truth, doesn't make it less truthful. To pretend that Pro-Trumpers are being punched by the right, or the far-right is delusional. Please tell me which side has the motivation to punch a white-nationalist? If you say the right you are saying the right are the ones fighting white-nationalism (however misguided the means). Own up to it. You are the asshole in this scenario. I have been nothing but cordial and respectful. You are name calling and being hyper-sensitive.

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02-02-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:26 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 10:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Eighty years ago we went to war to defend ourselves against Japanese suicide-bombers and Nazi's who declared war on us. You might not have read about it. I did, however read the Bill of Rights.

If we hadn't gone to war to fight hate, bigotry and fascism we might not have a Bill of Rights today. Roosevelt declared war on Dec. 8th 1941. Germany and Japan didn't officially declare war on us.

Was that before or after we imprisoned American citizens in internment camps for looking too Japanese? Go peddle that non-sense narrative somewhere else. It's utterly false and too easily debunked as non-sense. America was not the superhero anti-everythingbadyoucanthinkof. We were attacked, we retaliated.

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02-02-2017, 10:33 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
I'm not sure why it's relevant, but on Dec. 8th we only declared war on Japan. Germany declared war on us on the 11th. We on them a few hours later.

And for the record, even China was taking in Jewish refugees when we were still turning them down. And initially we didn't feel the urge to go to war until it was clear that our self interests were at stake. Our collective sympathy towards others being wronged didn't evolve until later.

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02-02-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
These people have done very real damage to very real people. But they skirt the law by not actually being the ones to attack them. They mock and shame people like me- transgender people, social justice advocates, feminists, etc.- in public, in front of our peers. That is an act of violence that carries through to all the listeners who feel emboldened to further that shame and harassment on their own, long after the speech. Long after the university gave the man a platform on which to speak his hateful rhetoric.

I will never feel sorry for them. Never.
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02-02-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:28 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 10:20 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And yet "throwing rocks at you for speaking your mind" isn't a violation of your right to free speech. Only the government can violate your right to free speech.

But you labeling the rioters and violent actors as members of the political "left" is just you being an asshole.

Just because you don't like the truth, doesn't make it less truthful. To pretend that Pro-Trumpers are being punched by the right, or the far-right is delusional. Please tell me which side has the motivation to punch a white-nationalist? If you say the right you are saying the right are the ones fighting white-nationalism (however misguided the means). Own up to it. You are the asshole in this scenario. I have been nothing but cordial and respectful. You are name calling and being hyper-sensitive.

Do what?

What "truth" have I rejected?

When did I say that it was the right or far right inciting the violence? The fuck are you talking about?

Own up to what? Your straw men?

Also, the audacity of saying that you've been nothing but cordial and respectful given your OP and thread title is laughable. You're not taking the high road, you're just being an asshole while trying to paint those who oppose you as assholes and you as a virtuous saint. You're not the victim, fuck off

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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02-02-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(02-02-2017 10:39 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 10:28 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Just because you don't like the truth, doesn't make it less truthful. To pretend that Pro-Trumpers are being punched by the right, or the far-right is delusional. Please tell me which side has the motivation to punch a white-nationalist? If you say the right you are saying the right are the ones fighting white-nationalism (however misguided the means). Own up to it. You are the asshole in this scenario. I have been nothing but cordial and respectful. You are name calling and being hyper-sensitive.

Do what?

What "truth" have I rejected?

When did I say that it was the right or far right inciting the violence? The fuck are you talking about?

Own up to what? Your straw men?

Also, the audacity of saying that you've been nothing but cordial and respectful given your OP and thread title is laughable. You're not taking the high road, you're just being an asshole while trying to paint those who oppose you as assholes and you as a virtuous saint. You're not the victim, fuck off

Unless you describe yourself as 'illiberal left' it's not an insult to you. If you do describe yourself that way, then yes, you deserved to take offense. You don't even seem to oppose my view on this matter. You're just hellbent on being a spiteful twat.

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