Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
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03-02-2017, 09:35 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
Dark, I think you confused my statement for his. I do however shun the title "conspiracy theory". However, I am the one who suggested agents provocateurs or possibly even people that he hired, himself, for publicity and profit. It's not a silly motive, that profit motive, now is it?

I pointed out that the two people caught being violent were not part of the black-mask group, nor part of the student body, and could simply have been opportunists or just regular joes who got pissed off at some provocation thrown out by the recently-encouraged alt-right to whom he panders, Drumph Juden Young Republicans, finally feeling their salt after convincing themselves they were an oppressed minority, out in California. There's a pretty hardline hyperconservative social group in Cali, despite the state's overall reputation, due to the sheer amount of wealth that is in that state, by itself one of the top ten economies on the planet.

And finally, I pointed out that not only is this concept not a wild idea, it's something with known historical precedent, COINTELPRO. Do you really think that much has changed, at such agencies, or that they haven't been keeping files on certain types of people (again, something we know they always do, historically, such as MLK for instance), despite words to the contrary? Do you really think their new employers/bosses in the White House are going to stop them from enacting these types of actions, even if some unscrupulous underling doesn't enact it himself, in pursuit of a "better America" free of "left-wing" influence, crafted in the Breitbart Image™, since Breitbart is now apparently the royal advisor.

Who did Mister "I Am So Hated By Liberals Who Just Can't Argue With Me So They Have To Shut Me Up" Yiannopoulos work for, again?

And how many news outlets are now saying "...works for Breitbart News" on the major networks, in reporting this story?

How many interviews has he given over this, now that the hubub has died a bit, and who stands to benefit from both this "those evil oppressive ones" narrative of silencing their right to be heard (legitimizing their side in the face of "terrible oppression because of people who fear the facts"-- the Big Lie being told and repeated, already and increasingly, about their "alternative facts") narrative and the increasing public visual presence of Mr. Milo Yiannopoulos. the Truth Teller™ in the wider public eye. What in the world might cause them to target Berkeley, the iconic center of liberal thought, at least in the minds of most conservatives, because of the 1960s-70s and a failure to learn since then.

We know they have done this sort of thing before, in order to discredit groups they very much wanted to silence, de-legitimize, and otherwise dis-empower. But I don't think it's necessary to think there was direct government involvement in this-- only that someone copies a tactic they are known to have used in the past, effectively, and has a profit motive to do it in the here and now.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-02-2017, 09:38 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(03-02-2017 04:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  
GirlyMan Wrote:What concerns me the most about today's daily dose of chaos is the President's response to withhold federal research funding if the nanny can't get the kids to settle down. Tell them if they don't eat their meat, they can't have any pudding. This smacks of authoritarianism to me. And a patronizing one at that. This is gonna end in tears.
I agree with you, GirlyMan. I don't believe it will help to solve the problem. Also it will hurt those who have nothing to do with this violence.

All, just wanted to throw you an electronic hug. Your humanity just etched up a notch, in my estimation. It's easy to forget that people who have hyper-conservative positions can be concerned about what happens to groups that are not under their own umbrella of interests. No sarcasm or cruelty intended, just an honest tidbit from me for you.

So yes, I am sincere about the electronic hug. Hug

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-02-2017, 09:46 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(03-02-2017 09:38 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 04:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  I agree with you, GirlyMan. I don't believe it will help to solve the problem. Also it will hurt those who have nothing to do with this violence.

All, just wanted to throw you an electronic hug. Your humanity just etched up a notch, in my estimation. It's easy to forget that people who have hyper-conservative positions can be concerned about what happens to groups that are not under their own umbrella of interests. No sarcasm or cruelty intended, just an honest tidbit from me for you.

So yes, I am sincere about the electronic hug. Hug

Alla's good people she's just .... Consider ... eccentric.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-02-2017, 11:39 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(03-02-2017 09:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 09:38 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  All, just wanted to throw you an electronic hug. Your humanity just etched up a notch, in my estimation. It's easy to forget that people who have hyper-conservative positions can be concerned about what happens to groups that are not under their own umbrella of interests. No sarcasm or cruelty intended, just an honest tidbit from me for you.

So yes, I am sincere about the electronic hug. Hug

Alla's good people she's just .... Consider ... eccentric.
She's got a propaganda fend, raised on forced propaganda and settled into the same system of a different story by leaping from crazy soviet claims to Mormon leaders playing that game

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04-02-2017, 12:04 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(03-02-2017 11:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 09:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Alla's good people she's just .... Consider ... eccentric.
She's got a propaganda fend, raised on forced propaganda and settled into the same system of a different story by leaping from crazy soviet claims to Mormon leaders playing that game

She certainly is interesting.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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04-02-2017, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2017 02:04 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(03-02-2017 12:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:Apply that definition to any group where like minds gather to support each other. Church, AA/NA, Support Groups, etc.
I didn't know that university campus is suppose to be a place where like minds gather to support each other. I thought that university is the place where NOT like minds gather together to get an education.
Emma Wrote:Also, read my statements more closely about Milo, you'll find that I also think he should have a safe space to talk. And it isn't university campuses.

Yes, I noticed you have said this. I also have read the article about what Milo said and did to this transgender person. It sounds horrible. I don't support this.
But as I understand correctly PC on campuses runs wild. So, naturally, some people will rebel against it by offending others. It seems to me that nobody wants to talk to each other and to listen to each other any more. Seems like WAR is the only solution.

Maybe you didn't heard that but war does not determine who is right - only who is left.

And how exactly that solution will work? There will be no one to disagree with poor, oppressed right wing ninnies?

(03-02-2017 09:38 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 04:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  I agree with you, GirlyMan. I don't believe it will help to solve the problem. Also it will hurt those who have nothing to do with this violence.

All, just wanted to throw you an electronic hug. Your humanity just etched up a notch, in my estimation. It's easy to forget that people who have hyper-conservative positions can be concerned about what happens to groups that are not under their own umbrella of interests. No sarcasm or cruelty intended, just an honest tidbit from me for you.

So yes, I am sincere about the electronic hug. Hug

She does not show much concern when she says that war seems to be only solution.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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04-02-2017, 02:02 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(03-02-2017 09:35 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Dark, I think you confused my statement for his. I do however shun the title "conspiracy theory". However, I am the one who suggested agents provocateurs or possibly even people that he hired, himself, for publicity and profit. It's not a silly motive, that profit motive, now is it?

I pointed out that the two people caught being violent were not part of the black-mask group, nor part of the student body, and could simply have been opportunists or just regular joes who got pissed off at some provocation thrown out by the recently-encouraged alt-right to whom he panders, Drumph Juden Young Republicans, finally feeling their salt after convincing themselves they were an oppressed minority, out in California. There's a pretty hardline hyperconservative social group in Cali, despite the state's overall reputation, due to the sheer amount of wealth that is in that state, by itself one of the top ten economies on the planet.

And finally, I pointed out that not only is this concept not a wild idea, it's something with known historical precedent, COINTELPRO. Do you really think that much has changed, at such agencies, or that they haven't been keeping files on certain types of people (again, something we know they always do, historically, such as MLK for instance), despite words to the contrary? Do you really think their new employers/bosses in the White House are going to stop them from enacting these types of actions, even if some unscrupulous underling doesn't enact it himself, in pursuit of a "better America" free of "left-wing" influence, crafted in the Breitbart Image™, since Breitbart is now apparently the royal advisor.

Who did Mister "I Am So Hated By Liberals Who Just Can't Argue With Me So They Have To Shut Me Up" Yiannopoulos work for, again?

And how many news outlets are now saying "...works for Breitbart News" on the major networks, in reporting this story?

How many interviews has he given over this, now that the hubub has died a bit, and who stands to benefit from both this "those evil oppressive ones" narrative of silencing their right to be heard (legitimizing their side in the face of "terrible oppression because of people who fear the facts"-- the Big Lie being told and repeated, already and increasingly, about their "alternative facts") narrative and the increasing public visual presence of Mr. Milo Yiannopoulos. the Truth Teller™ in the wider public eye. What in the world might cause them to target Berkeley, the iconic center of liberal thought, at least in the minds of most conservatives, because of the 1960s-70s and a failure to learn since then.

We know they have done this sort of thing before, in order to discredit groups they very much wanted to silence, de-legitimize, and otherwise dis-empower. But I don't think it's necessary to think there was direct government involvement in this-- only that someone copies a tactic they are known to have used in the past, effectively, and has a profit motive to do it in the here and now.


Yeah, what you just described is a conspiracy theory, whether you like that term or not. Young Republicans and a small fringe media outlet hired dozens of people to break the law and levy threats of violence in order to gain attention and money. That's a nutty conspiracy theory of the highest order. I'm familiar with COINTELPRO with the might of the largest governments in history using their taxpayer funded machines to spread disinformation. This is a liberal college in hippy-town and a third rate media personality risking prison for a publicity stunt that you're describing. Not only that there is absolutely NO evidence for it. I can "imagine a motive", but I could do the same for faking the moon landing. It's drivel. It's the ramblings of a madman. To even consider such a cockamamey conspiriacy theory you need to have compelling evidence, and you've provided no evidence at all.

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04-02-2017, 03:26 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
It's not "a nutty conspiracy theory of the highest order"; it's a situation that has happened before, just with a different group behind those discrediting activities-- which include "baiting" counterculture groups into doing activities that can rightly be suppressed, and thereby discrediting the movement. This is Breitbart we're talking about... do you really think they wouldn't take a page out of Nixon's playbook?

That scenario is as plausible as liberals who are for some unknown reason giving credence to an Alt-Right douchebag by playing into his narrative perfectly, since there is also no evidence that the violent agitators were members of the regular liberal students protesting at Berkeley because of a speaker they did not feel should be there at their university. (My disagreement with anyone saying a speaker "should not" speak somewhere is another matter.) This is bolstered by the fact that the only people arrested--or even known for sure to be involved in any violence--are not affiliated with the university or student body in any way.

By that same token, it is thus "a nutty conspiracy theory of the highest order" when you presume to label the actions to be those of "illiberal" Liberals, and buy into the rhetoric of a proponent of the Alt-Right.

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04-02-2017, 03:50 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(04-02-2017 03:26 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's not "a nutty conspiracy theory of the highest order"; it's a situation that has happened before, just with a different group behind those discrediting activities-- which include "baiting" counterculture groups into doing activities that can rightly be suppressed, and thereby discrediting the movement. This is Breitbart we're talking about... do you really think they wouldn't take a page out of Nixon's playbook?

That scenario is as plausible as liberals who are for some unknown reason giving credence to an Alt-Right douchebag by playing into his narrative perfectly, since there is also no evidence that the violent agitators were members of the regular liberal students protesting at Berkeley because of a speaker they did not feel should be there at their university. (My disagreement with anyone saying a speaker "should not" speak somewhere is another matter.) This is bolstered by the fact that the only people arrested--or even known for sure to be involved in any violence--are not affiliated with the university or student body in any way.

By that same token, it is thus "a nutty conspiracy theory of the highest order" when you presume to label the actions to be those of "illiberal" Liberals, and buy into the rhetoric of a proponent of the Alt-Right.

This isn't "Alt-Right rhetoric". It's the logical conclusion based on documented, and video-recorded evidence. There is zero evidence Breitbart, Milo, or a small college Republican group rented thugs to break the law, and enact violence on their own supporters to gain sympathy, nor do they have any of the political power that Richard Nixon had. It's a non-sense conspiracy theory. Even if you think they (the right wingers) had the means and motivation, the evidence is nonexistent, and it would require organization that would be near-impossible to keep quiet including dozens of mask wearing rioters, their funders, and the organizers of this conspiracy. Did the fact the the police watch these maniacs without arresting a single one of them mean that the police force was paid off by Milo too? Come on, man. If you think this was Republicans or Breibart, I've got some water-filters to sell you.

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04-02-2017, 04:04 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
Why would I think the police were bought off? That makes no sense. It's an unnecessary complication.

Neither does "documented and video-recorded evidence" (that shows no identities) count as evidence for your side, nor a rebuttal of my idea. That's just evidence that the event occurred, not evidence of who and/or what was behind the incident. The only evidence we do have are two apparent randoms who had no connection to the group receiving the blame.

But no, I don't think it takes a government agency to pull off... or all that much funding. I do, however, find it more plausible that it would be someone's propaganda effort than for a group of organized liberals to do pretty much the opposite of what liberals actually believe. Like during COINTELPRO, the groups that went beyond the peaceful aims of the peace movement were prompted and aided in going beyond by professionals undercover in their groups.

Likewise, the only reason I can think to observe behavior in a group that I have only ever before observed, and thus associated, with the goose-stepping right wingers, is that there is something going on that is counter to the narrative I'm being told. If evidence comes out that proves me wrong in this, I am all too glad to acknowledge it (but remain perplexed why such illiberal--as you put it--behavior is occurring among people who supposedly share liberal values), yet my instinct tells me that this is not what it seems. And I believe I have historical precedent for this belief.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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