Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
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04-02-2017, 10:18 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(04-02-2017 09:33 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 08:21 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Labels are only meaningful if they have ideas behind them. If "literally" can mean "literally" or "figuratively" then you'd better make it clear which you mean, but conflating the two meanings and pretending they are equal to one another because the masquerade behind the same label is non-sense.
Nonsense itself is quite meaningful.

Labels and symbols and other communication forms aren't even going to be static, they can't. But certain fields like politics and sports are filled with dozens of terms with zero consistency in meaning. You can ask groups if people to define a term and get half a dozen working definitions.

Liberal comes from a term noting freeness. It can apply to all ways. Even authortian religious conservatives have liberal stances on ideas. Sure they want freedom from fear and secularism. But in the political sphere words don't all latch to a root to become what it stands for anymore.

"Free to control others" is not liberalism. Otherwise there is no point in language because any word in this sentence can then mean anything to anyone.

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04-02-2017, 03:19 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
I definitely would be called racist by the same people who call Maher racist, even though I disagree with some of his statements on Islam. As anyone who follows my posts here knows, I have vehemently and vocally defended Muslims against (false) anti-Muslim rhetoric and generalizations in one post, then immediately made a post in another thread excoriating Islam for its fucking stupid, anti-liberal and anti-reality, ideas.

You may be an actual racist if you think that Muslims = scary brown threats to White Murkin' Society, as too many Trump supporters appear to have classified them. If a person is overgeneralizing "those people", when referring to Muslims, I may be right to label them a racist. The correct term, though, would just be "bigot".

But the idea that Islam is a race is entirely stupid, whichever side holds that idea. They're as varied as any other group. You can neither defend them as a group nor attack them as a group, because other than "they all think that Muhammad is the Prophet of the One God", there's not much else that adequately defines the group.

It's like those who defend or attack atheists as a group. If I was a Muslim or a Christian on an internet forum, I'd be right to attack fellow adherents who tried to claim "well atheists are a bunch of _____________", by pointing out that it's simply not true, and calling the person who tried to classify atheists in that way a bigot... even though as a Christian, I would think atheism was incorrect and would argue against the concept of atheism quite stridently.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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05-02-2017, 02:43 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(04-02-2017 03:19 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I definitely would be called racist by the same people who call Maher racist, even though I disagree with some of his statements on Islam. As anyone who follows my posts here knows, I have vehemently and vocally defended Muslims against (false) anti-Muslim rhetoric and generalizations in one post, then immediately made a post in another thread excoriating Islam for its fucking stupid, anti-liberal and anti-reality, ideas.

You may be an actual racist if you think that Muslims = scary brown threats to White Murkin' Society, as too many Trump supporters appear to have classified them. If a person is overgeneralizing "those people", when referring to Muslims, I may be right to label them a racist. The correct term, though, would just be "bigot".

But the idea that Islam is a race is entirely stupid, whichever side holds that idea. They're as varied as any other group. You can neither defend them as a group nor attack them as a group, because other than "they all think that Muhammad is the Prophet of the One God", there's not much else that adequately defines the group.

It's like those who defend or attack atheists as a group. If I was a Muslim or a Christian on an internet forum, I'd be right to attack fellow adherents who tried to claim "well atheists are a bunch of _____________", by pointing out that it's simply not true, and calling the person who tried to classify atheists in that way a bigot... even though as a Christian, I would think atheism was incorrect and would argue against the concept of atheism quite stridently.

Islam is a set of ideas. You can, and should criticize ideas. Really bad ideas that are also really popular deserve the harshest criticism you can levy against them. You cannot separate bad ideas from those who hold the bad ideas. Only they can do that. And you absolutely can make generalizations about those people while acknowledging it is a generalization. For example, I can say Muslims support a sentence of death for apostasy, and condemn them for that while recognizing that a large number of Muslims don't want to kill people for leaving Islam. In the same way I can condemn Trump supporters for wanting to ban people on the basis of their religious beliefs while still recognizing that not all Trump supports want to ban all people who are Muslim from coming to the US. When you hear people talk about Trump supporters by using terms like racist, sexist, and so on I am hoping that they can distinguish between someone who voted for Trump on the basis of economic policy, or national defense, who voted for him only because they perceived Hillary to be more dangerous, or any number of other reasons you could possibly have.

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05-02-2017, 08:52 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(03-02-2017 01:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 12:24 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I agree that Milo is deliberately a troll and intentionally cruel to audience members, but I disagree that he should not be invited. I think the key would be to have a "counterpoint" speaker follow him, who can meticulously pick apart every point he makes, or else only agree to host him in a debate-type format.

Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but not with Milo. What makes him different is the singling people out and bullying of the type that Emma posted earlier. If Milo is allowed to do that, it won't matter who follows with counterpoints. The damage to those individuals would already be done and could be very serious. Transgender people, for example, who are outed in this manner could literally commit suicide over it. I think this type of thing puts Milo in a separate class of people who should not be given a forum at universities.

Were I to run a university, I'd have his not behaving in that manner written into his contract, and his receiving his speaking fee made contingent on his decent behavior.

I'm all for free speech, but I think what it is essentially "doxing" someone irl seems deliberately inciteful.
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05-02-2017, 10:52 AM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(05-02-2017 08:52 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 01:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but not with Milo. What makes him different is the singling people out and bullying of the type that Emma posted earlier. If Milo is allowed to do that, it won't matter who follows with counterpoints. The damage to those individuals would already be done and could be very serious. Transgender people, for example, who are outed in this manner could literally commit suicide over it. I think this type of thing puts Milo in a separate class of people who should not be given a forum at universities.

Were I to run a university, I'd have his not behaving in that manner written into his contract, and his receiving his speaking fee made contingent on his decent behavior.

I'm all for free speech, but I think what it is essentially "doxing" someone irl seems deliberately insightful.

A great deal of people would consider denying Jesus as God Incarnate as indecent behavior. Not long ago, people in the 'Civilized West' were punished for it. There are people alive today in America and Great Briton, for example, who were jailed and/or fined for mocking the ideas of Christianity.

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05-02-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(04-02-2017 02:01 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  She does not show much concern when she says that war seems to be only solution.

That was Alla trying to be sarcastic. Yeah, she's not very good at it.

#sigh
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05-02-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(05-02-2017 02:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 02:01 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  She does not show much concern when she says that war seems to be only solution.

That was Alla trying to be sarcastic. Yeah, she's not very good at it.

To be honest I find her to be not very good at nearly everything that she do.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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05-02-2017, 04:33 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(05-02-2017 10:52 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 08:52 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Were I to run a university, I'd have his not behaving in that manner written into his contract, and his receiving his speaking fee made contingent on his decent behavior.

I'm all for free speech, but I think what it is essentially "doxing" someone irl seems deliberately insightful.

A great deal of people would consider denying Jesus as God Incarnate as indecent behavior. Not long ago, people in the 'Civilized West' were punished for it. There are people alive today in America and Great Briton, for example, who were jailed and/or fined for mocking the ideas of Christianity.

And that addresses my point ... How?
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05-02-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
He's saying that if you start censoring people because they might incite others, you're taking a step in the direction of Saudi Arabia:

[Journalist Alaa Brinji] was convicted by Saudi Arabia’s notorious counter-terrorism court, known as the Specialized Criminal Court (SCC), on a range of charges, including, “insulting the rulers of the country”, “inciting public opinion”, “accusing security officers of killing protestersin Awamiyya”, “ridiculing Islamic religious figures” and “violating Article 6 of the Anti-Cyber Crime Law”. The court also ordered the closure of his twitter account. All of these charges stem from tweets he posted online some of which were in support of Saudi Arabian women’s right to drive cars, human rights defenders and prisoners of conscience.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2...crackdown/

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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05-02-2017, 06:00 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(05-02-2017 05:41 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  He's saying that if you start censoring people because they might incite others, you're taking a step in the direction of Saudi Arabia:




#sigh
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