Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
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13-02-2017, 02:10 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 01:43 PM)kemo boy Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 03:35 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  He won for many reasons, but I think the majority of people really did not care who the KKK endorsed. If I were to guess, I'd say that the KKK probably endorsed Ronald Reagan too, and he won in one of the biggest landslide elections in American History. That does not mean the majority of Americans "didn't mind" the endorsement, they just didn't care. Who is particularly concerned with the political opinions of an openly racist group in 2017? I suspect a VERY small minority. I live in the state where the KKK was founded, in the South, and I never actually knowingly seen or met a anyone who was in the KKK, and haven't met anyone under the age of 80 (as of ~15 years ago) who openly said they didn't like someone based solely on their race.

But how many didn't like someone where race was part of it?

I'm more concerned about openly racist organizations now than ever in my adult lifetime, and I'm 60.

I'm only half your age, but I can see why one would be more afraid of racist groups now than a few decades ago. They seem to be seeing a resurgence with the ability for them to take most of their ideology online. It has allowed them to regain the anonymity that they used to gain so much political power in the US. Growing up 15 minutes west of where the KKK was founded (Pulaski, TN), I was always aware of them but they were pretty much viewed as fringe with no one paying them too much mind. But many groups have seen a massive surge in membership in recent years. (below is one article detailing some of this in the form of cash flow into these groups post-election 2016)
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-defamat...-election/

A map of them in the US by the Southern Poverty Law Center:
https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

And one of a few articles detailing concerns that the FBI has had regarding white supremacist groups infiltrating law enforcement:
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-...forcement/


So I think it is perfectly reasonable to be more scared of some of these groups today than in the 60's. Dismissing concerns over these hate groups is more rooted in ignorance and fantasy than an analysis of what is going on today

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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13-02-2017, 03:48 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
Trump's election, it seems to me, has encouraged America's bigots to fly their flags proudly. This can be both a good and a bad thing.
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13-02-2017, 04:00 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 03:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Trump's election, it seems to me, has encouraged America's bigots to fly their flags proudly. This can be both a good and a bad thing.

I think that is a fair statement, and one I'd agree with, but perhaps for different reasons. I think we could both agree then seeing people for who they are helps us easily and unequivocally identify and denounce some people, but on the other side there is a reaction on the left that seems too quick to shout 'racist' because someone supports this policy or that policy. There are plenty of very good reasons to have legitimate concerns on immigration, for example, from Islamic states. Supporting the travel ban doesn't mean you hate brown people. I am concerned about political stability in America, but perhaps this will create room for improvement?

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13-02-2017, 04:18 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 04:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Supporting the travel ban doesn't mean you hate brown people. I am concerned about political stability in America, but perhaps this will create room for improvement?

It's based on resentment. What do these people expect? That suddenly there would be an influx of muslims to rise above the 1 or 2 percent the US is having today? 1 or 2 percent of 300 something millions. In the whole Western world it's nowhere above 5 percent. Speaking of irrational fears that one of the smallest minorities could have an impact on day to day life.

No matter how you call it - I like to call it bigotry - it's irrational and based on resentments. An no, that has nothing to do with screening. I'm all for people being screened before allowed in. But that's not what this order is about. It's about a complete and utter shutdown to appeal to gut instincts of dubious nature.
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13-02-2017, 04:39 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 04:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 03:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Trump's election, it seems to me, has encouraged America's bigots to fly their flags proudly. This can be both a good and a bad thing.

I think that is a fair statement, and one I'd agree with, but perhaps for different reasons. I think we could both agree then seeing people for who they are helps us easily and unequivocally identify and denounce some people, but on the other side there is a reaction on the left that seems too quick to shout 'racist' because someone supports this policy or that policy. There are plenty of very good reasons to have legitimate concerns on immigration, for example, from Islamic states. Supporting the travel ban doesn't mean you hate brown people. I am concerned about political stability in America, but perhaps this will create room for improvement?

Supporting the travel ban is silly. The fact is that domestic terrorism has largely been committed by folks born and raised here. The travel ban is, I think, both Security Theater ® and a subtle appeal to racists (not that everyone who supports it is racist, but that the EO was promulgated in the hopes that bigots would provide a solid tier of support.)

As for crying "racist", I have no problem with that happening. Racism is still a deep and strong undercurrent in American society, and it still needs to be called out when it is shown. And I don't doubt that racism and anti-Islamic bigotry have a pretty strong correlation. Xenophobia, racism, and religious bigotry are individual stars in the tribal groupthink constellation.
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13-02-2017, 04:52 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 04:18 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 04:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Supporting the travel ban doesn't mean you hate brown people. I am concerned about political stability in America, but perhaps this will create room for improvement?

It's based on resentment. What do these people expect? That suddenly there would be an influx of muslims to rise above the 1 or 2 percent the US is having today? 1 or 2 percent of 300 something millions. In the whole Western world it's nowhere above 5 percent. Speaking of irrational fears that one of the smallest minorities could have an impact on day to day life.

No matter how you call it - I like to call it bigotry - it's irrational and based on resentments. An no, that has nothing to do with screening. I'm all for people being screened before allowed in. But that's not what this order is about. It's about a complete and utter shutdown to appeal to gut instincts of dubious nature.

Most people in support, don't realize or care that the odds of being killed by a refugee are lower than those of being killed by just about anything else including maybe toddlers. They go through extreme vetting already. I can think of many sources of political instability and Muslim refugees enjoy pride of place near the bottom of the list.

I think the EO is more likely to inflame passions resulting in an environment that is actually more dangerous. Some people, for whatever reasons, also get a sense of security by seeing a "display of strength", as long as they are not on the business end of it. They like to see movement. There are also quite a few sadists out there.

Trump is a bully. Bullies go for the weakest. He believes he has a helpless target among refugees and undocumented foreigners. He will keep lashing out at them, using them as a distraction when things get hot on the political front, and also because it gives him satisfaction. It's the one area he believed, at least initially, he could act with impunity. He is fine with whatever collateral damage he causes because he is a sociopath.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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13-02-2017, 04:57 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 04:52 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Most people in support, don't realize or care that the odds of being killed by a refugee are lower than those of being killed by just about anything else including maybe toddlers. They go through extreme vetting already. I can think of many sources of political instability and Muslim refugees enjoy pride of place near the bottom of the list.

That's why I said it's based on resentments and irrational fears. And that's why I maintain this is aimed at gut instincts of dubious nature.

I'm not American. But Xenophobia isn't exclusive to Americans. One may call it racist, but that offers whiggle space for the rats to escape. Hence I call it bigotry. Irrational fear of the other, which can be directed at every group, race or color.
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13-02-2017, 04:58 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 04:52 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Trump is a bully. Bullies go for the weakest. He believes he has a helpless target among refugees and undocumented foreigners.

In the sense that they cannot vote, he has indeed singled out the weakest, politically -- and is playing to both xenophobia and bigotry in order to buttress his move. It's times like this that we must even more keep in mind Niemoller's words.
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13-02-2017, 05:25 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
(13-02-2017 04:57 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 04:52 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Most people in support, don't realize or care that the odds of being killed by a refugee are lower than those of being killed by just about anything else including maybe toddlers. They go through extreme vetting already. I can think of many sources of political instability and Muslim refugees enjoy pride of place near the bottom of the list.

That's why I said it's based on resentments and irrational fears. And that's why I maintain this is aimed at gut instincts of dubious nature.

I'm not American. But Xenophobia isn't exclusive to Americans. One may call it racist, but that offers whiggle space for the rats to escape. Hence I call it bigotry. Irrational fear of the other, which can be directed at every group, race or color.

Yep. I haven't seen any rational justification for the EO grounded in demonstrable fact. Of course we have to enforce and follow laws. That is why the constitution guarantees due process for all persons(not just citizens)in the US.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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13-02-2017, 05:36 PM
RE: Illiberal Left Shuts Down Free Speech with Violence (Again)
Neo-Liberal =/= Liberal. They're a "new" movement from the 70s era of former Republican-types who discovered in the 80s that corporate money was delicious, and so they push slightly more progressive social issues than the Religious Right while still advancing an economically indistinguishable agenda. They have taken so much at this point that they are effectively a center-right party except on a few token social issues.

I would never have voted for Hillary Clinton because of her voting record, her support of the Prison Industrial Complex (and related national "crime fighting" policies), deregulation measures she has supported over the years, and a hawkish position on US interventionism. She's essentially a Republican who supports abortion and (eveeeennnntually) gay rights.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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